The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
groinkick:
--- Quote from: ClintACK on June 07, 2017, 02:14:45 AM ---I would have said that a holy person *becomes* a Saint after death.
A Saint is a deceased human who you pray to, asking them to intercede on your behalf with the big G, as someone who was once human and interested in the kind of difficulty you're having.
Example: Michael might have said a prayer to St. George before he took on Siriothrax.
So... consider Murphy's Dad. He's dead. He heads up an office somewhere in the transition between our world and the next. He has an angel standing guard at the door. He works for Uriel.
WAG of all WAGs: Murphy's Dad might be the patron saint of cops and others trying to keep people safe from the things that go bump in the night.
--- End quote ---
That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints. I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 06, 2017, 10:43:59 PM ---I'm mostly with Groinkick on this one. Saints are most likely people with an aptitude for faith magic, just as Harry has an aptitude for elemental magic. It's most likely not one or the other; it's probably conditioning.
The closest we've probably seen on-page to a Saint would be Charity. She set aside her power after the Sirio thing, but that hammer blow to the door at Arctis Tor was more than just strength and iron. I think she put her faith in a higher power, and that power acted through her latent talent (like Michael's faith protection, only offensive).
If Molly had been more devout, her talent might have lent herself to being a faith caster that could do enough good to be considered a saint.
--- End quote ---
Cool. Added an option for Saint as a Faith-based practitioner comparable to a Wizard. That cover it?
--- Quote from: ClintACK on June 07, 2017, 02:14:45 AM ---I would have said that a holy person *becomes* a Saint after death.
A Saint is a deceased human who you pray to, asking them to intercede on your behalf with the big G, as someone who was once human and interested in the kind of difficulty you're having.
Example: Michael might have said a prayer to St. George before he took on Siriothrax.
So... consider Murphy's Dad. He's dead. He heads up an office somewhere in the transition between our world and the next. He has an angel standing guard at the door. He works for Uriel.
WAG of all WAGs: Murphy's Dad might be the patron saint of cops and others trying to keep people safe from the things that go bump in the night.
--- End quote ---
Capt Jack is a great idea and one Id overlooked (Added). He definitely fits the classic/popular definition of a Saint the best (though I have a feeling he'd strongly disagree with the notion, but so would Harry). And while deceased he still appears to have some interaction with the Mortal World (as sanctioned by Heaven, one assumes) which might get around the WOJ's that describe them as active players.
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 07, 2017, 04:07:24 AM ---That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints. I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.
--- End quote ---
Yup, I included those WOJ's in the OP for Reference.
ClintACK:
Given that this is the DV, the real answer is probably "All of the Above".
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 07, 2017, 04:07:24 AM ---That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints. I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.
--- End quote ---
Yeah. We've seen that faith is a source of magical power -- from the fake Shroud of Turin to Michael's prayers. I'd imagine there are people with a bit more magical training who have learned how to channel faith magic specifically. (I remember there being some hints of that in one of the White Council meetings -- maybe the one at the end of Turn Coat?)
I'm picturing a priest whipping a congregation up into a pitchfork-and-torches kill-the-vampire mob, marching at the front with a sacred relic, and channeling the faith of the crowd into magic spells.
Perhaps something like that is what HD/JB meant in the Black Court quote.
So, yeah, what Griffin said. :)
Mira:
--- Quote ---I'm mostly with Groinkick on this one. Saints are most likely people with an aptitude for faith magic, just as Harry has an aptitude for elemental magic. It's most likely not one or the other; it's probably conditioning.
--- End quote ---
But Harry does have an aptitude for faith magic. He has faith in his magic, he often speaks of it, that is why he pulled it
out when Bianca attacked him in Storm Front, and it was effective..
Storm Front, page 103-104 hardback
--- Quote ---"Back," I said. taking a step toward it myself. The pentacle began to burn with a cold, clear light of applied will and belief--my faith, if you will, that it could turn a monster aside.
--- End quote ---
Again in Skin Game when he tossed the hilt of Fid in the direction of Charity and Butters, it was a leap of faith that it would do some good.
So Harry has strong faith, not conventional in the way many think of but he has it.. Does that make him a saint? In the television series, The Young Pope, saints are described in having, paraphrasing now, "a faith in God so strong that they turn to prayer to fix something before they turn to other humans.." That sort of fits Harry, his faith in his magic and what he can do with it is usually so strong that he doesn't turn to his friends who might be able to help him.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 07, 2017, 12:37:09 PM ---But Harry does have an aptitude for faith magic. He has faith in his magic, he often speaks of it, that is why he pulled it
out when Bianca attacked him in Storm Front, and it was effective..
Storm Front, page 103-104 hardback
Again in Skin Game when he tossed the hilt of Fid in the direction of Charity and Butters, it was a leap of faith that it would do some good.
So Harry has strong faith, not conventional in the way many think of but he has it.. Does that make him a saint? In the television series, The Young Pope, saints are described in having, paraphrasing now, "a faith in God so strong that they turn to prayer to fix something before they turn to other humans.." That sort of fits Harry, his faith in his magic and what he can do with it is usually so strong that he doesn't turn to his friends who might be able to help him.
--- End quote ---
I dont know, I think that just sounds too easy, too much like the Old "For a man with only a Hammer, everything is a Nail." Harry believes in his own Magic enough to summon Faith-glow from his pentacle, but when he turns to his magic to solve a problem it's not an act of Faith, it's just a man grasping a tool for a goal.
Harry /has/ made more prominent Acts of Faith, and Id say gotten noticed because of them, but I think they've been relatively rare.
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