Author Topic: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans  (Read 15258 times)

Offline knnn

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2017, 05:30:38 PM »
Good point.   The sculpture vs picture metaphor Harry uses very much suggests your reading (both for the Walkers and Mab).

I guess I always felt the Mab's defense of the Gates was against similarly-weighted opponents.  At the very least, this vastly increases the amount of "computing power" the Outsiders potentially have, even if they are constrained by amount of power they can project onto our "flat" 3d world.



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Offline Quantus

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2017, 06:41:53 PM »
Good point.   The sculpture vs picture metaphor Harry uses very much suggests your reading (both for the Walkers and Mab).

I guess I always felt the Mab's defense of the Gates was against similarly-weighted opponents.  At the very least, this vastly increases the amount of "computing power" the Outsiders potentially have, even if they are constrained by amount of power they can project onto our "flat" 3d world.
I imagine that the Outsiders are the real Adversary that beings like Uriel have to face off against, and that just like the forces of the Inside, they come in varying levels of Power and existence.  I wouldnt discount the possibility that the forces on the outside of the Outer Gates are (for lack of a better phrase) the same sort of 2D creature as the Fae they are fighting them, and that Outsiders of that fodder level are creatures being grown/captured from universes where the Outsider have more (or total) sway, presumably like the Sleepers wanted when they came here.  Even if the ultimate goal is the complete dissolution of the Multiverse, it seems their MO to take pre-existing Insiders and corrupt them for their purposes.  Actually, that description matches the Sidhe equally well. 


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Offline knnn

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2017, 07:25:23 PM »
I imagine that the Outsiders are the real Adversary that beings like Uriel have to face off against,

Thing is, I don't think we've ever see any angelic forces fighting directly against the Outsiders.  I mean (as far as I remember), you've got Michael at the end of PG, Nicodemus' "blinking" when he hears about Hellfire at AT (and some of the stuff he says in SG) and (if you buy into the theory) Rafael-Demonreach.

Now granted the whole Outsider threat was only explicitly stated in the last few books so its not impossible that we haven't seen the whole picture, but given that a whole angel is given the sole job to protect the possibly dying Forthill, you'd think Harry would have run across a few hints of their existence at the continual war at the Gates.

I guess it I just haven't have gotten "that vibe" so far, though of course it might be Harry's misunderstanding of the situation.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2017, 08:41:27 PM »
Thing is, I don't think we've ever see any angelic forces fighting directly against the Outsiders.  I mean (as far as I remember), you've got Michael at the end of PG, Nicodemus' "blinking" when he hears about Hellfire at AT (and some of the stuff he says in SG) and (if you buy into the theory) Rafael-Demonreach.

Now granted the whole Outsider threat was only explicitly stated in the last few books so its not impossible that we haven't seen the whole picture, but given that a whole angel is given the sole job to protect the possibly dying Forthill, you'd think Harry would have run across a few hints of their existence at the continual war at the Gates.

I guess it I just haven't have gotten "that vibe" so far, though of course it might be Harry's misunderstanding of the situation.
I picture it a little less of a literal battle at that level, though to be clear I am saying that the Outer Gates are simply one of several Fronts in the war, and that Angels (or at least those of Archangel level) are fighting it on a much different level than the much lower, more literal, and most importantly more /local/ battle.  A great analogy I once heard (couldnt say were) is that their battle is more like a Chess board: just because either side could "flip the table" and end the game at any time doesnt negate the value or importance of them both sitting down and attempting to Win The Game. 

Also, fwiw, I have a strong suspicion that Mab's "Executioner" mode is directly related to Angels; since she almost perfectly resembles the Angel of Death we saw in GS, it makes me think that once upon a time, an Angel of Death might have met its end on the Stone Table.
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Offline knnn

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2017, 01:13:02 AM »
Also, fwiw, I have a strong suspicion that Mab's "Executioner" mode is directly related to Angels; since she almost perfectly resembles the Angel of Death we saw in GS, it makes me think that once upon a time, an Angel of Death might have met its end on the Stone Table.

That might just be because of human (or Harry) perception. 

I don't think I like the idea of sacrificing an Angel on the Stone Table; it doesn't quite fit.   As Bob says "different wavelengths".   And from a technical point of view, how would you give equal power to both sides?   Remember that the Queen in charge of the Table at the time gets the power.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2017, 01:31:30 PM »
That might just be because of human (or Harry) perception. 

I don't think I like the idea of sacrificing an Angel on the Stone Table; it doesn't quite fit.   As Bob says "different wavelengths".   And from a technical point of view, how would you give equal power to both sides?   Remember that the Queen in charge of the Table at the time gets the power.
It's a power of Death, so Id say it would naturally go to Winter. If it happened, it either predates (or coincides) with the events precipitating the Seasonal Court split, or else the Summer side got another angelic Power-up, something on the Life end of the Spectrum.

As far as Wavelengths, I dont see why the Stone Table would be bound to the same limitations as a Spirit of Intellect.  It's not that Faith and Magic are incomparable, it's that Faith and Logic are incompatible, while most (but not all) of magic can be reasonably understood by Logic and Reason alone, so Bob has personally specialized in that aspect.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2017, 05:57:46 PM »
It's a power of Death, so Id say it would naturally go to Winter. If it happened, it either predates (or coincides) with the events precipitating the Seasonal Court split, or else the Summer side got another angelic Power-up, something on the Life end of the Spectrum.

As far as Wavelengths, I dont see why the Stone Table would be bound to the same limitations as a Spirit of Intellect.  It's not that Faith and Magic are incomparable, it's that Faith and Logic are incompatible, while most (but not all) of magic can be reasonably understood by Logic and Reason alone, so Bob has personally specialized in that aspect.

Why doesn't Mother winter take to the field against the outsiders?  If she wields the power of Death, wouldn't that be a great boon on our side of the conflict?
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Offline Quantus

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2017, 09:10:02 PM »
Why doesn't Mother winter take to the field against the outsiders?  If she wields the power of Death, wouldn't that be a great boon on our side of the conflict?
Hmm, i have several ways to answer that... sooo, in decreasing order of certainty:

1) No Walking Stick...
2) For the same reasons she doesnt bother with Dusting:  that's too Active for the incarnation of Cold and Silence and Stillness and Death and the fundamental reduction of Motion at the atomic level. 
3) Why doesnt Hades?  Why doesnt Odin? Why doesnt Uriel?  Why doesnt every single being of Power that exists or has a stake in the continued existence of the Multiverse?  Because that's not their Role, it's not their *cue ominous music and the echo effect* Purpose
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2017, 11:10:29 AM »
Perhaps Nemesis reactivates portions of the soul of those Fae that had one (Maeve) and takes complete control of those that never had one (cat sith). Or prior existence of a soul limits the level of influence that Nemesis has over the infected.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2017, 12:19:07 PM »
Perhaps Nemesis reactivates portions of the soul of those Fae that had one (Maeve) and takes complete control of those that never had one (cat sith). Or prior existence of a soul limits the level of influence that Nemesis has over the infected.
What makes you think Cat Sith never had a soul? 

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2017, 01:46:42 PM »
What makes you think Cat Sith never had a soul? 

Because the mortal side of Cat Sith clearly came from mortal Cats, and Cats are, without exception, Soulless little bastards.   8)

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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2017, 07:53:23 PM »
Attitude does not equal soul.
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Offline jonas

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2017, 12:08:03 AM »
Soul taint... it does effect humans but humans can resist via adaptability. So to them it amounts to little more than a devil whispering in their minds eye. Pretty sure Rudy and his 180 to hate Murphy could be evidence of this. FYI, he changed pretty much after contact with Harry and the Loup (whom may have also effected Harry)
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Offline Bakoro

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2017, 01:32:27 AM »
Somewhat related, there's also this WoJ (emphasis mine):...   
   
I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is  a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in.   One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders.   So one possible ending for the BAT is that  Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.   
   
     
Jim's quote is saying that in some universes, the Earth is not the focal point of Cosmic  conflict. In the DFverse, the Outer Gates are located in the earth's portion of the NN, and it's Earth's Mortals that are the focus of Cosmic importance, while the aliens that live in the Andromeda galaxy are kicking back with some space lemonade wondering what's for dinner. 
     
In some parallel universe, there's a planet populated by hyper-intelligent creatures that look suspiciously like donkeys, who have been locked in a fierce battle with the Outsiders. Meanwhile the people of Earth in that universe are celebrating an unprecedented 1000 years of peace known as the "Ice Cream" age, which was only briefly broken by a scuffle due to a disagreement over which topping was most appropriate: fudge, or butterscotch? The disagreement was mounting toward war until the last second when a clever Wizard named Gary Cresden discovered people could actually just use both.   

Sure, but you'd still have to explain why there are no mortals on that Earth summoning Outsiders.

Because they don't know about them. In some universes the Outsiders never get that far, and when/if they do, the Earth isn't the primary entryway. Maybe sometimes they get that far and the Earth becomes more important. Maybe sometimes there's no intelligent life on Earth.

Thing is, I don't think we've ever see any angelic forces fighting directly against the Outsiders.  I mean (as far as I remember), you've got Michael at the end of PG, Nicodemus' "blinking" when he hears about Hellfire at AT (and some of the stuff he says in SG) and (if you buy into the theory) Rafael-Demonreach. 
 
Now granted the whole Outsider threat was only explicitly stated in the last few books so its not impossible that we haven't seen the whole picture, but given that a whole angel is given the sole job to protect the possibly dying Forthill, you'd think Harry would have run across a few hints of their existence at the continual war at the Gates. 
 
I guess it I just haven't have gotten "that vibe" so far, though of course it might be Harry's misunderstanding of the situation.
 
   
The battle at the Outer Gates is only one part of a war that spans infinity. The Outer Gates are one portion that kind of acts like the front door to the Outside. We see the Outsiders attacking the Gates, but, if there are Gates, doesn't that imply that there are "walls" that wrap around everything else? Why not try to burrow through the walls?
We don't know the whole nature of the Outside, the Outsiders, or the War itself. It could very well be that while the Winter Sidhe are fighting things that they can actually beat, the Angels are keeping things at bay that the Sidhe are no match for, or it could be that they guard the walls of infinity themselves from Outside, and the things getting to the Sidhe are only the things that slip by.     
Since there is an Inside, one would assume that whatever deity created it (assuming it was actually created as such), would want to keep it in order. There are supposedly an innumerable amount of angels, so having a handful watch over the dead isn't that strange. Even in the midst of war, aspects of regular life still go on.
     
Also, regarding the angels and the daily squabbles Inside. In some Gnostic lore, the universe as we know it was made by a demiurge, an imperfect god-like being (usually with another, unreachable-to-us god above this being). The demiurge created the universe out of Chaos, and since the universe is made from imperfect material, it is inherently flawed and prone to darkness and chaos. Assuming the WG is a Gnostic demiurge, the conflict with Lucifer, and all the problems of the universe makes perfect sense. In this scenario, the Dresdenverse isn't just something separate from the Outside, it's *made from* the material of the Outside, the chaos that the Outsiders want to bring *is already here*, part of everything. So while the WG was able to make so many good things, conflict was inevitable, even among his own crew. The goal then would be to manage the chaos Inside as well as Out.   
Moreover, Freewill is in essence an element of Chaos inside an ordered system. A perfectly ordered and predictable system couldn't have Free Will. The creatures that battle Free Will want perfect order (and thus possibly safety from the Outsiders). Free Will both poses a threat to existence, and at the same time there's no point to existence without it.

edit: Forgot to address the base concept of the thread:
   
Wasn't it said in CD that Victor Sells and the FBI people were infected? I know it came from a suspect source, but it wouldn't really make sense to throw that into the story without it being true, even as a misdirection to throw Harry off.
   
I think there's just generally better targets. We don't know what Nemsis' limits are, it's been hypothesized that there might be a limit as to how many people it can control, or some other limiting factor that makes it infeasible to just spread like the flu. If it was easy as catching a cold, there'd be no stopping it, so there must be something more to getting infected by it.

Even if people have Free Will, they still have an inherent nature, it's just that most people never really make many significant choices to go against their nature. I think there's a WoJ about that. A Nemesis infection would turn someone away from who they are, hence Lily's bit about a loving father turning to consume his family, and people sworn to the uphold the law turning to vigilantism and murder. Sounds pretty Nemesissy to me, and the sludge that was all over that guy's Soulgaze seems to me like perhaps the earliest foreshadowing of Nemesis. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 01:45:15 AM by Bakoro »

Offline jonas

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Re: On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2017, 01:42:26 AM »
Sells and the Fbi were introduced to one thing your average mortal usually isn't though, magic.
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