The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
Mira:
--- Quote from: prince lotore on June 05, 2017, 04:33:19 PM ---I believe that nemesis doesnt affect humans because it cant hurt them. What it does is remove all obligations from the fey. without those obligations the fey so far have gone insane. good bad or indifferent the fey only act because of their obligations to what ever group they are with. with that removed they completely loose it.
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But are the Knights of the Courts immune? They are mortal, yes, but can the mantle be affected?
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Rasins on June 02, 2017, 11:52:07 PM ---Okay, I've long held the belief that nemesis cannot infect a human. Though why exactly I don't know. I personally think it has to do with the mutable nature of mankind's nature. I think Nemesis allows one to change one's nature, and since mankind already can, there really isn't any point to infection.
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I agree with your general conclusion, though I think I have a slightly different direction on the Why of it. I agree that Nemesis allows a being to Change, which is redundant in the case of Mortals. But I think that is the clue: Mortal's ability to Change themselves (and reality itself) is granted by their Soul. As "part-mortals", all Fae would theoretically have once had a Soul (as changelings) or otherwise be descended from some mortal creature that had them. So Im thinking that Nemesis can Nemfect Fae because they have, for lack of a better term, an un-occupied "Soul Slot", a vestigial thing that Nemesis can co-opt for it's own control. In the case of a Mortal, said mortal would first need to adequately destroy their own soul (through a series of terrible free will Choices) before Nemesis has enough "space" to move in and start nudging (and eventually dominating) the mortal.
--- Quote ---Another bit of evidence that suggests to me that nemesis cannot infect mankind is this ....
If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?
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My best guess is Tactics and Power Requirements. Per the explanation of the giant Pentacles in SmF, that kind of summoning takes proportion Power to create a Doorway big enough. So even if you have a Nemfected Mortal, there is still a hard limit on the scope of what that mortal would be capable of Summoning (they'd have to go out and find other Power Sources to drive larger Summoning). At that point, it becomes tactically more valuable to keep any and all activity (and assets) a secret; they could have each new operative start summoning what they can individually but long-term all that does is attract attention and get said assets killed.
That all being said, another reasonable tactic might be to get a single Nemfected practitioner, and then collect a ton of smaller talents and strip them of their power to consolidate it into a single user capable of summoning far greater entities. But somebody would notice a concerted effort to kidnap a bunch of low-level talents, right? Oh, wait... :P
knnn:
Personally, I think that mortals have some "antibodies" to Nemsis in the form of Free Will (which is why Heaven protects that above all), but Nemesis corruption can still affect humans in the form of the "black magic corruption" wizards get by (e.g.) killing with magic.
Evidence (granted all circumstantial):
1) In Cold Days, Lily describes Harry's first three cases as the work of Nemesis. Granted, she may have been tricked by Maeve (how did she learn of those specific instances anyway?), but assuming we take her at face value, that means two things:
- Mortals can be influenced.
- Things we (and apparently Harry and Morgan) assumed were "merely" black magic taint were actually Nemesis. Specifically, we've seen Harry's feelings and impressions while using one of the belts. In his opinion, if he had killed while under it's influence he would have never been able to make it back.
2) The old "description of blackstaff healing reminds one of Mordite" comparison.
3) Of the seven Laws of Magic, 5 of them have to do with "black magic". If we assume that Nemesis==Black Magic, and further assume (yes, this is a stretch) that time magic is prohibited because of it's obvious use against Demonreach then all 7 Laws become "anti-nemesis" laws.
4) The flashback scene in Ghost Story can be read to imply that HHWB's goal in taunting Harry was to get him to go back and kill Justin (with Black Magic). If we assume that "starborn" is a two-edged sword (i.e. useful to Outsiders as well), HHWB might well have been trying to tempt Harry to Nemesis corruption.
5) Finally, there's my whole "(mortal) magic comes from Outsiders/Azatoth" WAG, where the similarities between "real" magic (Harry needs to believe that it works) and faith magic suggest common "divine" (but per Bob "different wavelength") origin. Combine this with the fact that only mortals can summon Outsiders and that their magic doesn't work well on them and you possible get an "Outsider God" as the possible source of magic.
Why Azathoth? Consider the following WoJ (Dragoncon 2010)
[On magic affecting technology] "It's something that changes over time. It's a living growing force. It's not really aware, nothing like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who are using it."
**IF** Jim is hinting at the source of (mortal) magic, then this is some sort of mindless divine power. To me this sounds a little bit like:
--- Quote ---"the the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things"
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.....
Ok, I started rambling. Nevermind, carry on.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: knnn on June 07, 2017, 01:57:46 PM ---Why Azathoth? Consider the following WoJ (Dragoncon 2010)
[On magic affecting technology] "It's something that changes over time. It's a living growing force. It's not really aware, nothing like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who are using it."
**IF** Jim is hinting at the source of (mortal) magic, then this is some sort of mindless divine power. To me this sounds a little bit like:
.....
Ok, I started rambling. Nevermind, carry on.
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Id argue that the description there could apply to basically /any/ of the vaguely personified abstract concepts. Or, for that matter physical things like, I dunno...The Ocean?
knnn:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 07, 2017, 05:03:25 PM ---Id argue that the description there could apply to basically /any/ of the vaguely personified abstract concepts. Or, for that matter physical things like, I dunno...The Ocean?
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Well the ocean can't really be the source of mortal magic (e.g. the way TWG is the source of Michael's faith magic), so that wouldn't quite fit the WAG but in general, sure.
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