The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
When Winter took over at the Outer Gates [Spoilers all, including the DFARPG]
anzu:
Hastings' importance to the Courts never made much sense to me. Historically, it marked the end of the reign of Anglo-Saxon kings, replacing them with the Norman line. You'd think that the ascension of the Sidhe and the declension of the Norse would coincide with the rise of Anglo/Celtic/Briton power at the expense of Norse power. Instead, Hastings saw the elevation of the Normans (a people descended from the Norse) over the native Anglo-Saxon rulers.
Maybe the Sidhe weren't fans of the Anglo-Saxon reign, due to their ties to promoting Christianity across Britain. Or maybe the fall of the native rulers was due to the Sidhe being distracted elsewhere.
The Battle of Clontarf in 1014 seems a much more suitable ascension point for the Sidhe, and has parallels to what theoretically happened to the Queens. It was a battle between the native Irish and the Viking/Norse conquerors/settlers/raiders that had been harassing the Irish for a couple centuries. The battle ended with an Irish victory, successfully repelling the Vikings from the land. But the victory came at a high cost, with the High King and his sons all dying in battle, leaving the land divided under various rulers.
This transfer of power away from Norse Vikings would parallel their retreat from the Gates. And if both reigning Sidhe Queens died, then it would propel the Courts into just as much turmoil as the Irish themselves were.
Ulfgeir:
--- Quote from: namkcas on December 17, 2016, 04:15:58 PM ---Just an add on thought here...
So, we always talk about Mother Winter's Walking Stick as the being's stick not the position/title/mantle's stick. It would seem to me that the easiest way to get the stick would be during a transition of mothers. That would imply that the current mothers were replaced at the time of Hastings, thus leading to the promotion of Mab, etc.
--- End quote ---
There is a WoJ if I remember correctly, that says Mother Winter is the original one, and that Mother Summer has only changed once, and that was due to the original one abdicating.
/Ulfgeir
CloakedDestiny:
--- Quote from: WoJ ---1. the mothers - how does a queen become a mother? like after a thousand yrs, old winter dies and mab becomes the new mother?
Essentially abdication. The previous mother wearies of her duty and moves along. There's been one new Mother Summer during recorded human history. Mother Winter has never retired.
--- End quote ---
Con:
--- Quote from: Serack on December 17, 2016, 03:36:25 AM ---The Sidhe haven't always been as they are now That is, the current state of Summer and Winter Fae doesn't necessarily reflect how they used to be.
(click to show/hide)To me, the word "reuniting" implies that the power was at one point united.
--- End quote ---
Ok I have a hard copy of ghost story so it took me ten minutes to find this quote so you better appreciate it.
There's more substantial evidence that the Sidhe were once united in text.
--- Quote from: Ghost Story Chapter 17 p 198 ---'Lot of interbreeding there,' Bob said. Back in the old, old, old days. Before the Sidhe Wars"
......
Even before my time, but I've heard all kinds of stories. The Daoine Sidhe, the Tuatha, the Fomor, the Tylwyth Teg, the Shen. Epic alliances, epic betrayals, epic battles, epic weddings, epic sex
--- End quote ---
The Shen are from Chinese Mythology by the way.
P.S. I searched for 40 minutes for a Bombshells excerpt that had Leansidhe's explanation of the Fomor to Molly, but pretty sure that confirms they used to be united.
--- Quote from: Serack on December 17, 2016, 03:36:25 AM ---The Sidhe were created by outside agents for a purpose. (My spin on the below WoJ is that they already existed in some form, and were... appropriated and reshaped to purpose)
--- End quote ---
Agreed as evidenced by the fact that former Irish, Welsh and Scottish gods are now Fae. We also have evidence that Greek mythology was converted at least partially into Fae as well. Hecate, Bob's exclamation of Nymphs and Satyrs in Small Favor, the Centaur in Summer Knight.
--- Quote from: Serack on December 17, 2016, 03:36:25 AM ---Relevant mini-theory derived from the above 3 quotes: Although the Summer and Winter Courts were probably already a dichotomy, taking up stewardship of the Guardianship of the Outer Gates and the associated terrible power and responsibility is probably the wedge that drove Mab and Titania apart such that Titania no longer can even speak with her sister, and probably instigating the creation of the two Knight mantles that were "meant to be divided."
--- End quote ---
I Disagree partially and spin off my own theory. I think it's just that the Summer and Winter Ladies are supposed to be the emissaries between each others courts as evidenced by the fact that it was Lilly who was able to talk to Maeve she wouldn't be able to do that if it was against her purview to do so. The Summer and Winter Queens however are too proud, powerful, resentful of each other to ever be in their nature to speak to each other. It'd also be against nature the two high monarchs being in the same room the very essence of winter and summer each a Tropical Tornado and an Ice Age Blizzard. There'd be an explosion of some sort all that power together. At least not without one paying lip service to the other like Odin has to do as Kringle to Mab. Which neither Queen are willing to do. I agree that something caused resentment at the Battle of Hastings but I'm just not sure it was the Guardianship of the Outer Gates. At least that's not directly the cause of the resentment. I think it funner to think that Mab schemed or conspired to kill the Summer and Winter Queens at least Mab definitely profited from their deaths the last time a Starborn was running around. If Bob is to be believed and theirs also the theory that Winter Ladies always want to succeed their Queen.
--- Quote from: Serack on December 17, 2016, 03:36:25 AM ---So in conclusion, the above evidence seems to support these positions that together mean the two events were contemporary to each other:
* Our Mab is the one who took over at the gates
* "Hastings" is when the White Council obtained the Blackstaff, which is probably Mother Winter's walking stick and is probably "The last time things got awful in the wizard world." That is, when Mab and Titania's predecessors died and they ascended.
* Mab's position as defender of the gates is what defines the purpose of Titania's power, and is the likely wedge responsible for Titania no longer speaking with her "since Hastings"
--- End quote ---
1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Partially agreed.
Oh and does anyone know wher I can get an online copy of the Accelerated Rpg
Second Aristh:
Nice job collecting everything Serack.
As an extension, it might also be worthwhile to incorporate the idea of the Queens sharing the role of Hecate. One thing I've been toying around with that multiple Queens or proto-Queens were involved with the Persephone story. I think it's a given that multiple Greek figures/mantles were absorbed into the Queens. We know already the Fates and Hecate, but there are probably more and probably not all were Greek. We also know Hades "abducted" Persephone from Demeter while Hecate "helped" Demeter find her daughter. Based on domains of influence, it certainly seems like Demeter is a good fit for a previous Titania. Likewise, a previous Summer Lady fits with Persephone. If we take a Mab centered Hecate, then it makes sense for there to be animosity between a Mab and a Titania coming from a Hecate/Demeter grudge. Our Mab ascending to Queen at Hastings (assuming that our Titania ascended at the same time or before) and the fact that they broke off communications could be partially mantle driven.
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