Other Jimness > Cinder Spires Spoilers

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Quantus:

--- Quote from: Con on October 21, 2016, 01:20:13 PM ---I've noted the mentions of Archangels not so much the Builders a little of the Heaven. Most people in the Spire seem to treat Archangels and Heaven the same as any other society would treat a religion. That it's the main religion of the Spire and possibly other Spires but that the Wayist is considered another religion that is also spread amongst the other spires. I suspect Jim will evantually reconcile the two by saying The Way is literally just another way of worshipping or abiding by the same philosophy as that of the Archangel religion.

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I dont think so, personally.  I think the Archangels are actual beings (possibly protoss-style aliens) that are affiliated with the Builders (who I think obviously must be real). Cavendish mentions at one point trying to lure "them" out of heaven (space-station?).   EDIT: Actual quote "We'll never destroy them while they remain in Heaven"

Separately, at one point a foreign captains says "or by God in Heaven and the Long Road both, I will..."  If theories are correct that this is a post-apocalyptic earth, I think the God-in-Heaven is some alien force that adopted or was painted with the vestiges of the old religion, whereas Wayist/Long Road is more like a Buddhist religion that is more philosophic movement than mythological religion. 

Con:

--- Quote from: Quantus on October 20, 2016, 10:00:48 PM ---She's still playing audience surrogate to some extent, along with Bridget.  She's the one that doesnt actually know about much outside of crystals and the aristocracy, and so has to beat her ignorance against other characters for them to answer the questions that the reader will have.  Bridget does the same for matters of social interaction and such that Gwen should know.
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True enough, bit like butters original purpose. Though both Butters and Gwen annoy me in the first book appearance, at least until later in the book. Butters mostly because I completely agreed with Thomas assessment of his character, until Butters proved himself that is. I remember liking Gwens clarity moment on my first read where Grimm says "She has seen the Mistmaw"


--- Quote from: Quantus on October 20, 2016, 10:00:48 PM --- I think it comes down to a few things:  he hates being in the spires and dreams of a life free in the sky's, he hates the idea of belonging to or being accountable to anyone but himself, and he is "more than a littel full of pride."  Also, the initial offer was equivalent to trying to hire a decorated warrior to do menial physical labor, or a Ferrari to haul turnips.  That being said I think his more emotional reaction might actually be an extension of his apparent etheric connection to the ship itself; The Predator is just that: a predator, and to downgrade herself into a domesticated beast of burden, well Imagine a bunch of cats getting tied to a dog-sled...
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You make some good points, but hey the right dog sled team could also be hunting dogs, guard dogs and war dogs. Dogsled teams were awesome they conquered the arctic and anarctic where man's great machinery couldn't.


--- Quote from: Quantus on October 20, 2016, 10:00:48 PM --- I think he hates the fact that he's Warriorborn.  It's the sort of thing that will come up again and cause bigger problems before it goes away.
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Yeah I noticed that and thought I had written it, but beyond stupid societal prejudicial issues there's no downside to being Warriorborn and every upside. So it's a stupid flaw. I mean maybe if the Warriorborn were obviously oppressed and suppressed, but beyond a little jealousy at their abilities and not being able to advance into high positions I haven't found any evidence of it.
 
--- Quote from: Quantus on October 20, 2016, 10:00:48 PM --- hahaha, Ill forgive you saying that because you are only a few hundred pages into your re-read.  You are clearing forgetting certain events toward the end.
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Probably


--- Quote from: Quantus on October 20, 2016, 10:00:48 PM ---  :PI think it's fairly Victorian, which is literally defined as the reign of Queen Victoria. She'd face different challenges to a nation who's monarch is reaching the end of it's political supremacy than the spirearch would, so her relying more heavily on the socialite avenues of influence and power make sense for her, but the tactic of trying to convince everyone you are absent-minded and non-threatening while getting the real work done in the shadows makes just as much sense.  And I have to think that a King with a style like the Spirearch would only make the history books if he royally screwed up.  (no pun intended, but Ill take it ;))

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I'm still not sure I buy it. If anything the Spirearch would have to play more into social niceties to convince people he was a harmless dandy. I like the character I just want a reasonable explanation for why he would behave such a way when the rest of society down to the lowest social class obeys some form of social etiquette. Was he fostered in a much more liberal Spire for instance. What made him disdain the very etiquette that gives him power in the first place.

Quantus:

--- Quote from: Con on October 21, 2016, 02:13:05 PM ---You make some good points, but hey the right dog sled team could also be hunting dogs, guard dogs and war dogs. Dogsled teams were awesome they conquered the arctic and anarctic where man's great machinery couldn't.

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True, and the same can be said for airships; they can fill any number of niches both military and mercantile.  Cats...not-so-much, and Preddy is far more cat-like to my mind. 

--- Quote ---Yeah I noticed that and thought I had written it, but beyond stupid societal prejudicial issues there's no downside to being Warriorborn and every upside. So it's a stupid flaw. I mean maybe if the Warriorborn were obviously oppressed and suppressed, but beyond a little jealousy at their abilities and not being able to advance into high positions I haven't found any evidence of it.

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Dont underestimate social prejudices and the depth of fear and/or self-loathing it can engender.  These things can manifest in all kinds of Ways.  Thomas is a reasonable comparison (other than the fact that thomas eats people).  Also, fwiw, we've only seen a very small cross-section of the society, the Warriorborn may well face more stigma in other habbles and other spires.  We've only seen 2 of the 236 inhabited habbles of the Spire, and nothing whatsoever of the others (beyond the one military group); and those two Habbles were trade centers and the most metropolitan of all the Habbles, get them in the Spire's equivalent of the hillbilly sticks and the life of a Warriorborn may well be a darker thing.   

--- Quote ---I'm still not sure I buy it. If anything the Spirearch would have to play more into social niceties to convince people he was a harmless dandy. I like the character I just want a reasonable explanation for why he would behave such a way when the rest of society down to the lowest social class obeys some form of social etiquette. Was he fostered in a much more liberal Spire for instance. What made him disdain the very etiquette that gives him power in the first place.

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Well, to be fair I think a lot of that act is how he interacts with lower-born folks, individually.  We've not seen him in the presence of anyone in the aristocracy yet, or anyone that puts a whole lot of emphasis on the social niceties and hierarchy.  The only exception is Gwen, and after how they met I think he's just personally enjoying messing with her, not letting her use titles, etc.  It is entirely possible that his manner will change drastically when in that sort of social situation.  All we've seen so far is how he deals with his Guard and hireling (and favored snack vendors).

Con:
Haven't gotten far enough in the book for more Archangel talk just got past the first Silkweaver battle. It seems to me Bridget could have shown some common sense and gathered up some of the silk that the baby silks left behind make herself a nice tidy profit that way.

I like the Olympians. There's a Commodore Pine in the Silkweaver fight I'd like to see again, he has an interesting story of leading his men through the surface. Plus he has a very common sense attitude both to Albion fussiness and to fighting the Silkweaver. Captain Grimm has also just said "The Olympian Navy holds that a captain should know the details of every position in his ships company by working them with his own hands, stem to stem. It's the only way to be sure you know what each man needs from his captain in order to be able to perform his duty." p358

I like that attitude. Very practical and even honourable in its fair minded nature. I think I'd want to be an Olympian of what we know so far of the Spire's. Honestly I think as a character I'd even prefer to be a warmongering Auroran than an Albion. Though I wouldn't mind Habble Landing I suppose.

Con:
"Dont underestimate social prejudices and the depth of fear and/or self-loathing it can engender.  These things can manifest in all kinds of Ways.  Thomas is a reasonable comparison (other than the fact that thomas eats people).  Also, fwiw, we've only seen a very small cross-section of the society, the Warriorborn may well face more stigma in other habbles and other spires.  We've only seen 2 of the 236 inhabited habbles of the Spire, and nothing whatsoever of the others (beyond the one military group); and those two Habbles were trade centers and the most metropolitan of all the Habbles, get them in the Spire's equivalent of the hillbilly sticks and the life of a Warriorborn may well be a darker thing."

That's true Benedict is from one of the most powerful families of the Spire and a guardsmen so that could be stemming peoples initial disrespect and prejudice. We also know that there are many Warriorborn at the base of the Spire as Farmers and presumably the base of the Spire is the poorest being the furthest away from Trade and closest to the Surface.


--- Quote from: Quantus on October 21, 2016, 02:54:01 PM ---True, and the same can be said for airships; they can fill any number of niches both military and mercantile.  Cats...not-so-much, and Preddy is far more cat-like to my mind.  I'm still not sure I buy it. If anything the Spirearch would have to play more into social niceties to convince people he was a harmless dandy. I like the character I just want a reasonable explanation for why he would behave such a way when the rest of society down to the lowest social class obeys some form of social etiquette. Was he fostered in a much more liberal Spire for instance. What made him disdain the very etiquette that gives him power in the first place.
Well, to be fair I think a lot of that act is how he interacts with lower-born folks, individually.  We've not seen him in the presence of anyone in the aristocracy yet, or anyone that puts a whole lot of emphasis on the social niceties and hierarchy.  The only exception is Gwen, and after how they met I think he's just personally enjoying messing with her, not letting her use titles, etc.  It is entirely possible that his manner will change drastically when in that sort of social situation.  All we've seen so far is how he deals with his Guard and hireling (and favored snack vendors).

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True my bet is sooner or later we'll see him in a more formal setting having to glad hand the families or the admiralty possibly even in the next book at Olympia.

Is it stupid of me to secretly equate Olympia with Australia. I know the obvious connection is Greece but I can't help but think of green and gold and fur trimmings and Commodore Pine as more Aussie in nature than Greece. Ah well probably just a fantasy.

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