Author Topic: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!  (Read 10243 times)

Offline Yeratel

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8872
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 10:41:09 PM »
Thanks for the input!  So in your opinion, it would be plagiarism?  As I mentioned, I'm aware that one cannot copyright ideas, but does this apply to specific incidents as well?
It doesn't sound like plagiarism to me, unless you lift a whole passage from another book about a woman with a Sam Spade fixation.
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. " -RAH

Offline LizW65

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2093
  • Better Red than dead...
    • View Profile
    • elizabethkwadsworth.com
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 10:48:35 PM »
I've just been looking over copyright and plagiarism law, and from what I can tell, what I've done is and isn't plagiarism.  In other words, there's a huge grey area.  As far as I can tell, if I credit Mr Blye in some way, I'm OK (the whole thing being hypothetical at this point, as I'm only on Chapter 5 of a projected 21 chapters of my Magnum Opus.)  Thanks for all the discussion this has generated!
"Make good art." -Neil Gaiman
"Or failing that, entertaining trash." -Me
http://www.elizabethkwadsworth.com

comprex

  • Guest
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2008, 11:03:52 PM »
Mr. Blye and others.   Remember, if you rip off more than 20 sources it's "research".

Maybe this could get you started:
http://sherlock-holmes.classic-literature.co.uk/the-adventure-of-the-copper-beeches/

Offline Yeratel

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8872
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2008, 11:37:01 PM »
It seems to me that a detective in a trenchcoat has been around long enough to become a stereotype. It didn't originate with Mr. Bly, either.  Put your own original spin on it, and just consider it an homage to the history of the Hard Boiled Dick.
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. " -RAH

Offline meg_evonne

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5264
  • With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2008, 01:32:32 AM »
*applauding Yeratel*
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
Photo from Avatar.com by the Domestic Goddess

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2008, 03:20:32 PM »
It seems to me that a detective in a trenchcoat has been around long enough to become a stereotype. It didn't originate with Mr. Bly, either.  Put your own original spin on it, and just consider it an homage to the history of the Hard Boiled Dick.

I agree.

The word we may be looking for here is "trope".
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Yeratel

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8872
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2008, 06:15:51 PM »
The word we may be looking for here is "trope".
For "Hard Boiled Dick", in the sense used, I'm pretty sure stereotype is what I meant. If you're thinking a detective in a trenchcoat is a trite and overused cliche, then in that sense "trope" may be appropriate. When writing for a general audience, I refrain from whipping out my William F. Buckley Vocabulary, anyway.  :)
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. " -RAH

Offline meg_evonne

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5264
  • With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2008, 08:15:38 PM »
Ahh but I miss his pithy commentary
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
Photo from Avatar.com by the Domestic Goddess

Offline LizW65

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2093
  • Better Red than dead...
    • View Profile
    • elizabethkwadsworth.com
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2008, 08:27:49 PM »
For "Hard Boiled Dick", in the sense used, I'm pretty sure stereotype is what I meant. If you're thinking a detective in a trenchcoat is a trite and overused cliche, then in that sense "trope" may be appropriate. When writing for a general audience, I refrain from whipping out my William F. Buckley Vocabulary, anyway.  :)

How about "stereotrope"?
"Make good art." -Neil Gaiman
"Or failing that, entertaining trash." -Me
http://www.elizabethkwadsworth.com

comprex

  • Guest
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2008, 08:30:59 PM »
How about "stereotrope"?

If you stare at it long enough a Private Dick pops out?

Offline Yeratel

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8872
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2008, 08:43:43 PM »
If you stare at it long enough a Private Dick pops out?
Like in those "Magic Eye" posters.  :D
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. " -RAH

Offline meg_evonne

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5264
  • With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2008, 09:54:09 PM »
I see a best seller in the making.  Forget the stupid polar bears and rainbows.  let's get to the good stuff!
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
Photo from Avatar.com by the Domestic Goddess

Offline Franzeska

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Want To Get 100 Novels Sold And Published? Steal Them!
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2008, 06:33:55 PM »
I'm ... concerned since in my case the "idea" is rather a specific one:  In Irwin Blye's Secrets of a Private Eye, a kind of manual on the methodology of private detectives, he mentions in passing a female client who insisted upon his wearing a trench coat whenever they met, even though this was not standard practice for him. 

You're fine.  Generally, two types of borrowing constitute plagiarism:

1. Uncited direct quotations (including those that have had a word or two switched around)

2. Sequences of ideas supporting a point

#2 is applicable to nonfiction.  It essentially means that you can't go look at someone's journal article, copy his logic, and write a book on the same topic using the same argument without citing him.  Endlessly derivative plots in fiction are fine.  If I were you, I would write a preface acknowledging any significant influences, but I wouldn't worry about unintentional plagiarism unless you find yourself accidentally copying the actual text of someone else's work.  (It is possible to do this from memory.  I've caught myself accidentally doing it in papers on a couple of occasions.  Luckily, I noticed in time and was able to put in citations.)

If you want a readable guide to plagiarism, take a look at academic honesty codes.  Most universities have lots of webspace devoted to the subject.  A real case on a relevant topic is the controversy over Frozen and Dorothy Lewis.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_(play))  Notice that Frozen borrows much more from Lewis' work and real life than your one puny little idea.  The references were of a type where people other than Lewis and the playwright were able to easily recognize their source--yours isn't.

Also remember that plagiarism and copyright infringement are totally different concepts.  An act can easily be one or the other or both.  You cannot copyright ideas, but ideas are often plagiarised.  You are not plagiarising if you cite, but you may be using more text than you're allowed under fair use, which would mean you're violating someone's copyright.

The bottom line: you are borrowing a single real event for a work of fiction.  It's not plagiarism, it's not copyright infringement, and it's not the type of thing Blye would be able to sue you for emotional damages over.  Stop worrying.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 06:38:56 PM by Franzeska »