Other Jimness > Cinder Spires Spoilers
Some plot elements just bug me....
skybluemonk:
Good Debate.
nothing says whether they are floating or not specifically!
But text suggests, as pointed out above, it is on the surface.
It is also guarded. Pike says he was almost shot up after walking a mile across the surface with his injured crew. Indigenous wildlife get in through vents etc. Nothing described as flying but crawling climbing things we know of this suggests contact with the ground or only flying or things that jump high.
By the way what was Pike and his crew up to? Did he crash a mile out from the spire? That's damned close. Why did he crash? He's a regular has his own suite. Is Jim leaving another of his plot threads waving in the air?. Is this a "car crash" we will get back to in Book 6?
I look but cant find reference in the book to a conversation that says electricity is not supplied to the habbles. Would appreciate someone [Please pointing it out to me. How habbles function intrigues me. They need power.
As for defense. The spirearch makes clear he cannot trust the Guard till the traitorare flushed. Also they are police he gives the numbers and points out they are stretched thin over 236 habitted habbles. He has to let things play out without any obvious response from himself other than the sending of a small secret force.
The Fleets defensive strategy I've explained is down to Wilson. As to his genius Bayard and Grimm may have been ironic! There are clearly lots of problems within the fleet. If Jim is modelling the British Admiralty over its history then there's internal battles over Aristocratic Command structures mostly by baffoons buying their positions versus professional seaman earning command [Rook]. In any event he Wilson was thinking invasion not guerrilla warfare.
500 highly trained Marines vs 96 Grimms Crew [minus casualties as the book progresses]. Plus the Silkweavers [1000?] Grimm is outnumbered and has to be reactive following the marines not taking them on one on one. He is ordered to protect Ferus group that's important he cant defend the landing and do that with the resources he has. He also has no idea what the marines will do next.
By the time he gets to the Monastery they are attacking the Habble itself on the way to the landing.
Predator is barely functional and only manages to get up to battle ready by the skin of her teeth and survive the destruction of the landing. [Also thanks to Ransoms empathetic nostalgia... big mistake by her but revealing another side to her than pure mercenary] If he made an Alamo of Predator with no shroud, Mistshark would have blown her to hell and back nostalgia or no.
Never mind some approx 350 to 400 trained Marines heavily armed with explosives playing in a tinderbox of wood. Turns out he makes the right calls to save the group and eventually reveal [and in some way yet to be explained in full] deadened the impact of the reason behind the whole Aurorean attack which was acquiring the Index.
Also haven't specifically timed everything but main events in whole book is over a couple of days i"d say. There's no time to particularly put the Spire on a war footing never mind that for his own reasons the Spirearch has kept the information suppressed. So who knew ... a handful of people in the spire and the fleet outside it.
Any defensive cannon on the landing would have been targetted and blown up by the marines and remember its all wood not even spirestone so ridiculously vulnerable from an internal attack.
sorry but it is pearl harbor'ish'. in and out quick have a plan stick to it no invasion just the damage which in this case was a plus to the real objective the Index. Look at the fall of Singapore or the Maginot line for "almost" parallels of defenses pointing the wrong way.
As for Iron rot... love it It applies to both sides seriously handicaps armed warfare sets limits makes for interesting world building. I suggest Jim has thought through the implications and is having fun with the problem he has set himself.
Shecky:
--- Quote from: skybluemonk on January 28, 2016, 09:18:47 PM ---Good reply Shecky. But... grins .. I still have some issues. There are 3 entrances exits. Surface Habble Landing Habble morning. Habble Landing did "create" itself but where is it in the series of 250 Habbles. Impression I got was at first surface or near re read and thought . But if all goods have to hauled up and down internally [a hell of a task not to mention how no draught animals no vehicles described and we have a city to service here population jim suggests of Manhattan.] then makes sense its around Habble 125. Still think humans as lazy as we are would have demanded and created lifts internal we have lift crystals after all . Doesn't need many Habbles largely self sufficient vats water gardens etc but hauling say wood internally and heavy goods machinery need some internal transport system other than pure muscle power.[ Otherwise I have images of Egyptian Slaves hauling waggons up ramps by rope. [OOOOhhhh have we invented the wheel!!!!!]
Suggest just not mentioned yet as been no particular need.
--- End quote ---
Yes, Landing decided, because they were roughly halfway between top and bottom, they would be the perfect middlemen. But please remember that it took a LONG time for them to knock out just one hole in the spirestone to create an opening to the outside; imagine, then, the time, resources and manpower it would require to knock holes in each habble in order to run a vertical lift. And while they were working on that, that established trade route (assuming you'd put it in the ramps between habbles, or should they cut the holes where people are living or working?) would be at least partially blocked, restricting all movement significantly at the very least. Finally, the intermediate step of having lift-style platforms that could be guided up the ramps: crystals of any size or power are prohibitively expensive and relatively rare (the two go together), so, again, it would be easier to use existing merchant ships on the outside.
--- Quote from: skybluemonk on January 28, 2016, 09:18:47 PM ---As for the attack. From memory the admiral of the Fleet [Wilson?] was embarrassed by the sneak attack that dropped the marines. He ordered the fleet out to form a cordon around the spire so no attacker would get close. But they were already here and he reacted exactly as the Aurorians expected.
Mistshark was a neutral merchant under a Dolosian flag and already docked. Grimm suspected for his own reasons but no evidence and would the fleet believe him. Knowledge of Marines was not common knowledge and Spirearch kept it secret to flush out the traitor or traitors who could be in the Guard. So no Guard deployment. Just Grimm and his small crew who's orders were to protect and support Ferus and the others. He did what he could when he could. The marines blew up the landing Mistshark caused chaos by destroying neighbouring ships thus assisting in the escape. The fleet is miles away looking out not in so relatively easy for Random to dodge the cordon until of course the Fleet knew it had been fooled again. Await with interest to see the political fallout in the fleet as a result.
Also the Spirearch has his resources witness the rallying of the Habble to putting out the fire etc. He simply was using Ferus et al as his trigger in a long wider game in which risks must be taken.
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It's fairly obvious that the brass's reaction was short-sighted: guard the targets of military importance to the Spire's own military (i.e., the Navy's yards, the most easily accessible entry—meaning the topmost). The purely commercial port simply wasn't a priority, and it was even less a priority given the intelligently executed, unforeseen method of sneak attack. Ransom was a "known non-hostile," remember.
--- Quote from: skybluemonk on January 28, 2016, 09:18:47 PM ---As for power sources in the habbles we have lumins [crystals] the spirestones themselves channel etheric energy Jim hasn't said that i recollect what fuel they use to cook for example but could be electricity from an "etheric"source we just don't have the detail. We know there are steam engines they need power to heat water wood is expensive no petroleum coal [surface problems] so my money is on electricity generated for public use and to power steam. We have Grimms electric tea pot as an example. Demand and supply!
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There's obviously infrastructure in place for such things, but when you've always done everything a certain way, and your society is based on that assumption, there's not going to be much innovation. And if the Spire wanted to divert the power that's already in use, how are they going to rewire the whole Spire (see earlier point about spirestone being less than easily manipulated)?
skybluemonk:
so Shecky lets say we have a pianos to deliver to say habble 39 and Habble 92 via merchantman from another spire Cant be delivered directly to the specific habble. Both lets say get dropped off at the base entrance the ground.. Assume ground floor is ground and up the ramp we have floor/Habble 1 etc etc. The first piano would need to man hauled up 39 ramps to reach the right habble. Wouldn't make sense to man haul the other piano up 92 ramps. Instead would go up the outside in a windlass to Habble Landing which is 125th floor and then down 33 to Habble 92. Similar strategy would apply to the moving between Habbles 125 and 250. Mind you heavy goods easier to manipulate using gravity i.e going down than going up.
We have Habbles that are sizeable populations the whole spire is big population there would be lots of traffic between spires unless each habble is self contained and travel is restricted. Such a limitation of freedoms doesn't sound right for Albion. The ramps have to be big [wide] cant be staircase sized as in skyscrapers.
If they ran along opposite outside walls [one up one down the gradient at 2 miles by 50[something feet... grins we haven't decided how thick the floors] would be small. I'd have carts like mining wagons on rails gravity powered ie the goods going down "pulling" up the goods going up. I'd settle for another power source like steam but how is the steam "heated" as wood coal oil etc seem improbable. Would in my description just need one trade goods ramp could be 3 others for foot traffic.
Doesn't need holes cutting nor clogging up other traffic. What I see as a problem would have been the motivation for the middle habbles to desperately need an outside opening which was incredibly hard to do but really really worth it. Would not solve the problem of internal haulage but make it a damn sight easier. So similarly they would have put effort and time into designing an efficient trade goods transportation on the inside that was more than physical man handling. There is one. Humans being humans its odds on bet, I'm just suggesting what it could be. Travel up and down the outside isn't a problem.
--- Quote ---Quote from: skybluemonk on Yesterday at 02:18:47 PM
As for power sources in the habbles we have lumins [crystals] the spirestones themselves channel etheric energy Jim hasn't said that i recollect what fuel they use to cook for example but could be electricity from an "etheric"source we just don't have the detail. We know there are steam engines they need power to heat water wood is expensive no petroleum coal [surface problems] so my money is on electricity generated for public use and to power steam. We have Grimms electric tea pot as an example. Demand and supply!
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---There's obviously infrastructure in place for such things, but when you've always done everything a certain way, and your society is based on that assumption, there's not going to be much innovation. And if the Spire wanted to divert the power that's already in use, how are they going to rewire the whole Spire (see earlier point about spirestone being less than easily manipulated)?
--- End quote ---
Ok cant argue with there is an infrastructure in place providing power for domestic use etc but we don't know what it is. But that's like saying oh its magic. Not berating Jim for not saying what it is but we have a steampunk world where Jim has set some limitations by sequestering the surface. Power sources are limited to etheric steam and electricity and etheric has itself its limitations. Seems from description from Folly etheric fields flow through spirestone. spirestone is the wire . Seems to me it generates a field and she needed a nexus in that field which she could tap into. If that is the case then it should be possible for such nexus to provide power perhaps the Builders provided for this in each habble. Again just looking for plausible ways of making the Spire work using breadcrumbs supplied by Jim.
Agree social structure would tend towards stagnation and little innovation. Each Spire is under siege from the surface from its fellow city/state spires. All priority goes into what they perceive will keep them safe. Now a great plot line would be the Coke Revolution " I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony" Grins
skybluemonk:
whoops and forgot Ramps are just special forms of windlass one floor deep if you think about it but see the problem with overall number of crystals, maybe lift crystals quicker and easier to grow. Need 250. hmmmmmmm
Shecky:
--- Quote from: skybluemonk on January 30, 2016, 08:00:31 AM ---whoops and forgot Ramps are just special forms of windlass one floor deep if you think about it but see the problem with overall number of crystals, maybe lift crystals quicker and easier to grow. Need 250. hmmmmmmm
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Sorry, what?
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