The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Watsonian McAnally: the son of the chief physician.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Serack on July 28, 2015, 12:04:34 PM ---I was too depressed about not being able to find the mentioned RPG quote in the WoJ's or regular canon to read EG's theory earlier, so I still have to go through it...
--- End quote ---
No worries, it ain't goin' anywhere ;)
--- Quote ---Edit: I just deleted what I was going to say, because EG found it in Dead Beat as well.
EG, post it in the timeline bro!
--- End quote ---
Knnn covered it in absentia for me
Lawgiver:
--- Quote from: Lash Dresden on July 28, 2015, 02:34:19 AM ---Mac is able to call Harry for help, also (Heorot). If Mac has been around for millenia, it seems he's likely to know who took Elizabeth (was that her name?), and how dangerous it would be for Harry to face the Grendelkin (although assuming he knew all that, it's likely he knew Sigrun would be involved so Harry wouldn't be going in alone). Involving himself as he did there (by getting Harry involved) seems sort of non-neutral to me.
(Just tossing this out there - I don't have an opinion on Mac either way.)
--- End quote ---
Pretending neutrality when one actually isn't neutral isn't exactly a new covert tactic.
Some of what's been quoted before is relevant to a slightly different angle on things.
Eldest Gruff said:
--- Quote ---Mac is there, at someone's behest or his own, to 'look in' on Harry so to speak. How he does or does not handle him is partly up to his discretion I imagine but also at least somewhat beholden to whatever nature he is or turns out to be and the choices that came of it.
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily wrong, per se, just possibly a bit underestimating.
From DB we know,
--- Quote ---He'd opened the tavern a few years before I'd moved to Chicago.
--- End quote ---
This is either pure happenstance (accident) or Mac is there purposefully.
When Vadderung (Kringle) says,
--- Quote ---If one wishes to alter the course of history, it's a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future.
--- End quote ---
he might be giving a very big clue that's being totally missed (by Harry and all of us).
Harry's disturbed by Vadderung's knowledge saying,
--- Quote ---Oh, man. Vadderung knew about Ebenezar. Which meant that either he was higher in the old man's circle of trust than I was, or he had access to an astoundingly scary pool of information.
--- End quote ---
Though it's probably both, as Odin, we know he's definitely got 'an astoundingly scary pool of information'. That's one of Odin's hallmark traits - foreknowledge.
I think it just as likely that, in addition to the favored Tam Lin/Gregori/Transbstantiated Raphael trio, Mac could possibly be a seperate agent placed for the purpose of doing what Odin/Kringle has proposed -- shape the future by starting far enough in the past to get that job done without alerting many figures of power to the manipulation. JB has indicated that creating a Starborn involves a complex set of events. There's nothing in that phrase that specifies that all those events have to occur before that Starborn's birth. He's also indicated that Elaine is (or at least has been) a potential Starborn. Meaning either pre-birth circumstances should have mirrored Harry's in some way and we've little to go on that supports that. So, by implication it seems that "Starborn" might be an on going process... a destination not a starting point.
namkcas:
The one thing is that Mac is neutral under the accords, but when the Outsiders came - he treated the pub as not neutral ground.
If it was an Accords member, the request to "Send the Wizard Out" would have been met by Harry going out to fight whatever. You aren't supposed to fight in Mac's as an accords member and at least one place it says that you are not supposed to taunt someone into violence. Given that they are Mab's accords, Harry would be compelled to follow them and meet an Accords member.
Instead Mac acted to defend his place. He told Harry and Thomas to kill the Outsiders. This means not only does he know them, but he does not act neutrally to them. As on my post in Serak's thread, compare this to his demeanor on the island. Back to neutrality. If the Ladies blow up the island, he would shrug. But let an Outsider show up and he is ready to throw down. To me that is our biggest clue.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: namkcas on July 28, 2015, 04:12:44 PM ---The one thing is that Mac is neutral under the accords, but when the Outsiders came - he treated the pub as not neutral ground.
If it was an Accords member, the request to "Send the Wizard Out" would have been met by Harry going out to fight whatever. You aren't supposed to fight in Mac's as an accords member and at least one place it says that you are not supposed to taunt someone into violence. Given that they are Mab's accords, Harry would be compelled to follow them and meet an Accords member.
Instead Mac acted to defend his place. He told Harry and Thomas to kill the Outsiders. This means not only does he know them, but he does not act neutrally to them. As on my post in Serak's thread, compare this to his demeanor on the island. Back to neutrality. If the Ladies blow up the island, he would shrug. But let an Outsider show up and he is ready to throw down. To me that is our biggest clue.
--- End quote ---
I don't disagree in principle with regards to Mac's general neutrality as it pertains to this idea but I don't believe it would have mattered if an Accords member 'called him out' so to speak and Harry would have felt compelled to go. Nor does it make any sense that Mac could not defend his place from assault if attacked first whether the attacker was an Accords member (or in this instance violator and therefore fair game) or an Outsider. Mac's is neutral, so whichever Accords member is doing this challenge is not gonna attack the place if Harry decided to hunker down there for a while, he'd just look like a coward. Just look at the sourced encounter between him and Tiny, Harry didn't go to fight him. Granted Murphy intervened there but Harry had no intention of going out with Tiny to fight, nor did Tiny or he have any intention of fighting in the bar. Tiny taunted him, threatened him and tried to goad him into the fight so i'm pretty sure if that was mentioned at all as not allowed Mac would have taken issue. But the outcome was the same one way or the other, Tiny challenged Harry and Harry didn't go.
Whether they are Mab's Accords or Harry is the Winter Knight isn't gonna play into anything...if he's in Mac's you can't touch him as an Accords member and you have to wait for him to go. MAC himself is the only one who could compel Harry out of his establishment if such trouble ever came a knockin' and there is no reason to believe he would do so given he's already had the chance and never did. Harry would not be any more compelled to go out there and 'face his challenger' than he was previously. He can sit back and drink all the beer he wants till HE is ready to get going and there isn't a damn thing any challenger could do about it outside of A) branding Harry a coward or B) attacking Mac's. One of those ain't happening and the other is water off a wizards ass so to speak.
Serack:
I like the post. I have two suggestions.
First is that you shift the TL;DR version into spoiler code at the top of the first post.
Second is to provide links to the preexisting identity theory topics as Tam Lin and Raphael in your references to them in the conclusion paragraphs.
The search function didn't help me find a Grigori topic.
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