The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The Religious Relics: What Are They?
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Lawgiver on June 23, 2015, 02:51:34 PM ---We have knowledge that Maeve was over a century behind in doing her job. There's room to speculate (I think it's been done before) that Maeve might have been N-fected for some time before Harry's story opens, and Mab has been maneuvering things for a showdown with Nemesis for decades.
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That first part would mean she lied at the end of CD as it pertained to how Maeve got N-fected and when. Which as we all know, she cannot do. The only argument one can make is 'well she can be wrong.' Wrong for 150 years is unlikely. That Nemesis only used Maeve NOW when things like the Well were unprotected for 148 of those years is also immensely unlikely unless Nemesis is the worst planner ever.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 23, 2015, 04:12:53 PM ---You know, for the longest time, I've been wondering what's the symbolism behind the Nails' power. I think this is the best explanation I've ever seen for it. Well done!
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Thanks :D
--- Quote ---That said, if you wish to associate the Crown of Thorns with responsibility, how does that tie in with the Thorn Manacles? Aren't they also symbolic of restraint, since they bind the user's magic?
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It doesnt directly/philosophically tie to the Thorned manacles that Ive been able to come up with, beyond the obvious physical descriptions NEW Idea, see below. The Crown give me the most trouble out of them honestly, because the Royalty abstracts are already covered by the Placard in it's "Kings of Jews" statement. Unless the Placard is related to his Name, while the Crown was fulfilling a separate requirement of actually being Coronated? The idea of it being a proto-Thorned Manacle would fit the DV idea that this was some kind of Binding Ritual for a super-powerful being.
If we assume that this all amounted to a Binding Ritual of some Mantled being, the it would follow that the being had some kind of magical ability, the sort of Abilities that might flare up unconsciously during a period of great physical and emotional strain (Passion, you could even say ;)). In this frame the Crown would represent a Monarch's duty to restrain his own needs and desires and Sacrifice for the Greater Good of his people.
--- Quote ---Also, while you've accounted for the Noose's ability to levy the Barrabas Curse, you forgot about its ability to render the wearer immortal. Any suggestions on how the immortality ties up to retribution/judgement?
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Not one that Im really committed to, but thats what I meant by the whole bit about "a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself)." The idea was that the wearer of the Noose is Destined to die By the Noose, and so is preserved for that (inescapable) eventuality. You could even take it a step further and say that the Noose itself is imposing a sort of low-level entropy curse on it's bearer, ensureing that someday somebody will come along and make sure the Noose does it's work. "Sometimes what goes around comes around, Sometimes [Harry is] what Comes Around."
raidem:
--- Quote ---Not one that Im really committed to, but thats what I meant by the whole bit about "a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself)." The idea was that the wearer of the Noose is Destined to die By the Noose, and so is preserved for that (inescapable) eventuality. You could even take it a step further and say that the Noose itself is imposing a sort of low-level entropy curse on it's bearer, ensureing that someday somebody will come along and make sure the Noose does it's work. "Sometimes what goes around comes around, Sometimes [Harry is] what Comes Around."
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I like that the Noose is a Curse idea.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: raidem on June 23, 2015, 06:12:27 PM ---I like that the Noose is a Curse idea.
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It appeals to me more and more, if for no other reason than it could be an eventual explanation for why harry hasnt shouted Nic's weakness from the rooftops yet.
Phariah:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 23, 2015, 03:08:22 PM ---I have a theory. The premise isnt mine, but I forget who I first heard mention it. What if the Crucifixion were an elaborate ritual to kill a particularly powerful Immortal (ie the mortal avatar of the White God), or perhaps to dislodge his mantle so it could be transferred?
Based on the power level of the artifacts these days, it seems reasonable that Big Juju was going down during the Crucifixion. Based on the relative power of the shroud in DM vs the shroud in SG, it's likely much more than just the accumulated faith of today. Based on the historic view that the Old Testament christian God and the New Testiment seem to have different personalities/characterizations, it would fit that that the Crucifixtion were the event responsible.
So, assuming for the sake of argument that that's indeed what was happening, what role might each of the artifacts played? And for the record, I dont know when or how the items got Power, whether the items were empowered ahead of time or empowered by the events themselves. The revealed original names of the Swords implies that they managed to call existing Power to those particular objects (a sort of Object-mantle, for lack of a better term), so it's possible that these object had similar manifestations in other cultures.
We have a total of 8/10/40 artifacts associated with that field, and by ones we know the most about is, by far, the Swords. (For this theory Im assuming the knife is indeed the Spear). These are all part of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arma_Christi
- Three Swords
-Fidelacchius/Kusanagi
-Esperacchius/Durendal
-Amoracchius /Excaliber
- Grail
- Knife/Spear
- Crown
- Shroud
- Placard
- 30 Coins
- Noose
The Swords = Restraint: These have the stated purpose of restraining and supernatural advantages of the Knight's enemy, forcing them to play by the Mortal rules. The Nails were used to restrain the body of Christ, locking him to the Cross
Grail = Purification: The Grail is generally as an artifact of Purity and Healing, and was used ahead of time during the Last Supper. It would follow that the Cup was used as part of a Pre-crusafixion-ritual purification, similar to what Harry does before major rituals. However, since it received the Blood of Christ ahead of time, it might have played some kind of thaumaturgical role, and "some traditions do say Joseph of Arimathea used to catch his blood at the crucifixion"(Wikipedia).
Crown = Responsibility: In the abstract this is what declared him to be the King of Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is a important metaphysical attribute. However, the placard does this similarly, and there were several Mock-royalty items involved (a reed for a scepter, purple Robe, etc). It would appeal to me if the Crown of Thorns was actually the original prototype of the Thorned Manacles, and so had similar powers.
Placard = Name: This (in the abstract) shows and represents the Name of Christ, which would be all kinds of important for most any such ritual. It also anchors him as the King of Israel/The Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is a important metaphysical attribute. It's powers will be Name related somehow; either reveal a TrueName, or perhaps forcibly Change it.
Shroud = Preservation: It's supposed to have healing powers, so Im guessing that this is responsible for sustaining Jesus's Body while he was off on a Soul-walkabout (to Purgatory by some traditions), essentially like what DR and Mab did for Harry.
Knife/Spear = Death (Change): This is what did the deed, so to speak. The logical assumption on primary power is to Kill Anyone, Kill Immortals, Forcibly sever/remove a Mantle from it's current Host, or similar. This could then be why it gained the reputation of ensuring Victory.
30 Coins = Choice: The Coins represent the Mortal's Freedom to Choose Evil. The Coins gain the Power to Increase the Freedom of the disgraced Fallen by allowing them to tap that same mortal Right to Choose Evil. Since the Swords arguably Impede Freedom, and the promotion of Freedom is the stated definition of Good in the DV, such Restraint would be fundamentally counter to the MO of the Heavenly Host, which is why the Coins gain a balancing Power.
The Noose = Retribution: This is the representation of Judgement, and the inescapable consequences of mortal Choice. It grants access to a Curse, symbolic of the Jew's Choice to free Barnabas rather than Jesus, and Im thinking a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself).
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your ideas for the 5 objects from the vault are kinda similar to mine that I posted in the other thread. I like your ideas. I think the only major difference we have is the Crown.
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