Magical healing?

[BigMrE]

How would you handle it?  I know stress goes away, but how would you handle "healing" minor or moderate consequences magically?

[blackstaff67]

I wouldn't.  I personally loathe magical healing in the DFRPG as being against the spirit of the novels; I feel that if you want magical healing, go play another game. 

[Taran]

I think there's been lots and lots of discussions on this.  There's some home-brew powers as well as some formulae for ritual healing.

Elaine's ritual in YS does nothing other than start the healing process.

Recently, I started a thread on medical treatment and healing so that magical healing could be better integrated into the game.

I disagree with blackstaff slightly.  It may not be in the spirit of the novels but I don't think it's impossible.  Mab fixes Harry's broken back pretty easily.  But she's Mab.  Butters theorizes that Winter doesn't actually heal but numbs pain instead.  But a broken back is a broken back.  Undoing paralysis isn't easy.  And besides, Summer magic should be able to do biomancy pretty well. 

It probably shouldn't be easy but I don't think it should be impossible.

I'll troll the site to see if I can find some links for you.

[Taran]

double-post:

Here's some links.  I didn't read all of them as I found them so some may not be what you're looking for:

Powers:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18645.msg836987.html#msg836987
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22925.msg983635.html#msg983635
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44093.msg2125429.html#msg2125429
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44745.msg2142444.html#msg2142444

Advice (some from Iago)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,15659.msg721361.html#msg721361
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32627.msg1447910.html#msg1447910
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27009.msg1151308.html#msg1151308
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17201.msg778833.html#msg778833
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39125.msg1925601.html#msg1925601

Items and spells
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26014.msg1107379.html#msg1107379
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21099.msg921725.html#msg921725
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18990.msg847046.html#msg847046
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40072.msg1968602.html#msg1968602

Medical treatment(which goes into magical healing slightly)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44775.0.html

Edit: organized threads slightly

[blackstaff67]

I think there's been lots and lots of discussions on this.  There's some home-brew powers as well as some formulae for ritual healing.

Elaine's ritual in YS does nothing other than start the healing process.

Recently, I started a thread on medical treatment and healing so that magical healing could be better integrated into the game.

I disagree with blackstaff slightly.  It may not be in the spirit of the novels but I don't think it's impossible.  Mab fixes Harry's broken back pretty easily.  But she's Mab.  Butters theorizes that Winter doesn't actually heal but numbs pain instead.  But a broken back is a broken back.  Undoing paralysis isn't easy.  And besides, Summer magic should be able to do biomancy pretty well. 

It probably shouldn't be easy but I don't think it should be impossible.

I'll troll the site to see if I can find some links for you.

I then qualify my initial response with: "I'd allow it with the proviso that debt might be involved."  I dunno; at best, I'd choose to make it rare or with a price to pay.

[Remi]

How would you handle it?  I know stress goes away, but how would you handle "healing" minor or moderate consequences magically?

For those two categories of consequences, it doesn't seem like anything extra is needed.

Straight from the book:

Mild consequences are Bruised Hand, Nasty Shiner, Winded, Flustered, Distracted.

Moderate consequences are Belly Slash, Bad First Degree Burn, Twisted Ankle, Exhausted, Drunk.

Severe consequences are Broken Leg, Bad Second-Degree Burn, Crippling Shame, Trauma-Induced Phobia.

Recovery for mild consequences is started by first aid (a Scholarship roll) and they go away at the end of the next scene.

Recovery for moderate and severe consequences is started by treatment by a doctor. Moderate consequences recover after the next session. Severe consequences last until the end of the next scenario.

For magical healing, the Reiki Healing spell (p. 300) makes a moderate consequence go away like a mild consequence. With this spell severe consequences can optionally be made to recover like moderate ones, for an increase in power (essentially casting time or preparation).

That means you can recover from any mild or moderate consequence by the end of the next scene. Given that most fight scenes are followed by scenes of aftermath and travel to the next action scene, you should have everything you need with the basic rules.

[BigMrE]

Thanks you guys.  You all made some good points, and I also appreciate the links Taran.  I thought I remembered reading it somewhere, but it's been awhile since I've played, or even paged through my book/pdf.  I'm planning on running a few sessions, and I had one of my prospective players ask about  this subject.  I guess since it has been a while, I had forgotten that minor consequences go away that quickly.  Probably should be more for a moderate/severe consequence, and I agree, it shouldn't be like a D&D cure wounds type spell.  I though more of a thaumatergical spell, involving preperation, but (and I know I'm crossing novel lines here) thought that maybe a water-based spell could provide some minor healing/relief ala Percy Jackson.

[PirateJack]

Arguably it's possible to use biomancy to Transform the target into healthy shape, but I'd make it extremely hard for characters that dont have Summer Magic or specialist doctor skills. Maybe even impossible for people who dont have at least a degree of knowledge in medicine.

[Taran]

Arguably it's possible to use biomancy to Transform the target into healthy shape, but I'd make it extremely hard for characters that dont have Summer Magic or specialist doctor skills. Maybe even impossible for people who dont have at least a degree of knowledge in medicine.

I'm not arguing this point but it makes me think:  what kind of 'knowledge' do you need to create a zombie?  There's no stunt requirements for that kind of thing.

-Should a practitioner of divination of some kind of schooling in Astrology, geomancy, astronomy?

-Does someone doing fire magic need to have a physics stunt so that they know how to create fire from air?

-Do you need a veterinary degree to turn someone into a dog?

I just wonder why healing has this, seemingly, arbitrary requirement  when most other rituals have the knowledge built in.

[dragoonbuster]

I'm not arguing this point but it makes me think:  what kind of 'knowledge' do you need to create a zombie?  There's no stunt requirements for that kind of thing.

-Should a practitioner of divination of some kind of schooling in Astrology, geomancy, astronomy?

-Does someone doing fire magic need to have a physics stunt so that they know how to create fire from air?

-Do you need a veterinary degree to turn someone into a dog?

I just wonder why healing has this, seemingly, arbitrary requirement  when most other rituals have the knowledge built in.

It's not arbitrary--not as Jim has described how healing works. You've got to picture in your mind exactly what you're doing. Without some kind of advanced medical training, you're simply not going to be able to direct your magic to do what you want it to. Healing isn't as simple as "close that laceration! Magic!" Without the training (or an intervening sponsor like Summer), you're guaranteed to mess up your healing. And then you're a Lawbreaker.

Personally, I don't require the Doctor stunt for a PC to heal, but I require an appropriate High Concept or other aspects to justify the knowlege they've got of human anatomny. A CPR class at the YMCA won't cut it.

Making zombies is a matter of calling up ectoplasm around a body and animating it like a puppet. Vastly different than repairing living tissue without negative side effects.

If a diviner uses astrology/geomancy/astronomy in their divination? Yeah, they need to know that kind of stuff, whether through an appropriately high Scholarship skill, aspects, etc. Let's also pause to reflect how long it takes to gain a working level of knowledge in these subjects compared to the time it takes to become a doctor.

For the fire thing, obviously there's hyperbole going on here; the whole "years of training in the mystic arts" covers that. And wizards do, to some degree, learn physics to help them cover it. Harry has mentioned many times that magic still obeys physics--implying he has gained a working knowlege of it as it applies to his magic. Why the difference between this and needing additional justification for healing? Because the physics behind fire, and the mental construct needed for that, is much simpler than the complexity of biology.

If you wanted to turn someone into a dog, you don't need a vet degree--but unless you had one, the person-turned-dog would die shortly from having organs and systems that don't work properly. As is mentioned somehwere in YS in the transformation section, I believe.

[Sanctaphrax]

Making fire, divining, and animating zombies are all comparatively simple, but I think a mundane knowledge requirement has potential for making rituals more interesting.

For example:

The conjuration of complex machines is possible, but only if you know how those machines work.

You don't need to know anatomy to make a zombie, since it has no meaningful organs. But you do need to know biology to create a new species of mundane animal, since animals are complex. Without knowledge the best you can do is an ectoplasmic construct that looks like a new type of animal, which disappears when the magic runs out and can't reproduce naturally.

You don't need to know physics to make fire, because fire is simple. But you do need to know physics to make a nuclear explosion, because nukes are complicated and mashing together conjured uranium isn't enough to make one.

You don't need to know astrology to identify an object with divination, since you can just use whatever method of divination you do know. But you do need to know chemistry if you want to divine the exact molecular make-up of that object, since without chemistry knowledge you won't understand what your spell is telling you.

And so on.

If you wanted to turn someone into a dog, you don't need a vet degree--but unless you had one, the person-turned-dog would die shortly from having organs and systems that don't work properly. As is mentioned somehwere in YS in the transformation section, I believe.

Yep. Page 237.

[Sanctaphrax]

No comment?

Maybe my idea is actually very bad and nobody wants to tell me...

[dragoonbuster]

Making fire, divining, and animating zombies are all comparatively simple, but I think a mundane knowledge requirement has potential for making rituals more interesting.

For example:

The conjuration of complex machines is possible, but only if you know how those machines work.

You don't need to know anatomy to make a zombie, since it has no meaningful organs. But you do need to know biology to create a new species of mundane animal, since animals are complex. Without knowledge the best you can do is an ectoplasmic construct that looks like a new type of animal, which disappears when the magic runs out and can't reproduce naturally.

You don't need to know physics to make fire, because fire is simple. But you do need to know physics to make a nuclear explosion, because nukes are complicated and mashing together conjured uranium isn't enough to make one.

You don't need to know astrology to identify an object with divination, since you can just use whatever method of divination you do know. But you do need to know chemistry if you want to divine the exact molecular make-up of that object, since without chemistry knowledge you won't understand what your spell is telling you.

And so on.

Yep. Page 237.

No comment?

Maybe my idea is actually very bad and nobody wants to tell me...

No comment here because that was the same thing I was trying to get across (though not that well, perhaps). It's how I run my game.

[Mr. Death]

Elaine's ritual in YS does nothing other than start the healing process.

Not strictly true -- it also downgrades the amount of time needed to heal a moderate consequence to that of a mild consequence (but only the recovery time; it's still in the moderate consequence slot).

And in addition to Taran's list, I came up with some potential example spells, if that helps.

Edit: Forgot to link the stupid thing: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43527.0.html

[Theogony_IX]

Making fire, divining, and animating zombies are all comparatively simple, but I think a mundane knowledge requirement has potential for making rituals more interesting.

For example:

The conjuration of complex machines is possible, but only if you know how those machines work.

You don't need to know anatomy to make a zombie, since it has no meaningful organs. But you do need to know biology to create a new species of mundane animal, since animals are complex. Without knowledge the best you can do is an ectoplasmic construct that looks like a new type of animal, which disappears when the magic runs out and can't reproduce naturally.

You don't need to know physics to make fire, because fire is simple. But you do need to know physics to make a nuclear explosion, because nukes are complicated and mashing together conjured uranium isn't enough to make one.

You don't need to know astrology to identify an object with divination, since you can just use whatever method of divination you do know. But you do need to know chemistry if you want to divine the exact molecular make-up of that object, since without chemistry knowledge you won't understand what your spell is telling you.

And so on.

That sounds like a fine idea to me.  It's something that Harry talks about a lot in the books.  For most of Harry's non-divination spells, he relies on Bob for the knowledge (Scholarship/Lore stunt? IOP?) and even then, Bob can't do everything.  Thaumaturgy has always given me a get-out-of-jail-free feeling.  A limitation like that could really balance that feeling for me.