Author Topic: Magic Circles and Breaking Them  (Read 4152 times)

Offline eiredrake

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Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« on: February 11, 2015, 04:01:31 AM »
I'm on my second work through of the Dresden files series (own all the books and audios and the RPG) and i'm on Ghost Story right now. It's got me thinking a bit about circles.

Early in the series, Chauncy is stuck in a circle and has to make a show of ranting and raging to get out of it.

Toot Toot gets stuck in a circle a few times... always tries to escape as a matter of form.

In one of the books a Toad demon kicks dust at a circle containing Harry and Susan but can't break it.

Harry chucks something (film canister) at a circle to break it.

Harry holds Der Erlkonig in a circle for a bit.

The summoner dude (Binder?) threatens Harry with breaking his circle at the same time Molly is sealing him in a really big circle.

I'm a little fuzzy on the whole free will concept as it is mentioned in the books. I'm not sure I understand how a creature with any sort of intellect beyond animal levels can NOT have free will. However it does say that you can only break a circle if you have a mortal will right?

If that's the case why would Chauncy or Toot Toot even bother? They don't have this 'free will' thing. Shouldn't they know they can't get out?

Also,  clearly a circle is more than just a circle. If it was just a line in the dirt you could step over it and that wouldn't be much use so it must be a three dimensional shape. Or is it more like some sort of semi-permeable force field?

So how far up does it extend? Is it a cylindrical container? Some sort of sphere or hemisphere? Or is a cone that extends upwards? Dresden said something earlier in Ghost Story about circles... something about extending upwards into infinity?

Obviously air can get across the boundary (unless you make it specifically to stop air movement). What happens if you build one under a tree and leaves fall on it? Or dust? What if (like Harry opening the Way in Changes) a building/cavern falls on you while you're in the circle? Does it hit you? Does it break the circle? What about some mortal who unwittingly does something to go through the circle? Like some sort of Rube Goldberg machine that they don't know what it does or they accidentally trigger, does that break it? Or given the same Goldberg machine, if it's set up specifically to break the circle but a thousand years pass does the intent of the original builder count? That'd make a hell of a nasty booby trap if that'd work.

Can someone explain circles a little?
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Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2015, 04:52:46 AM »
In examples 1, 2,3, and 5, it's a non-human testing the conviction/power of the circle-drawer.  In #4 and 6, an entity possessed of free will is breaking the circle--apparently a  world of difference.

Edited for clarity:  The circles have the ability to restrain or repel those creatures without free will; humans, possessed of free will, have the ability to break them.
Hence the importance of a Changeling of its final choice: Become human or Fae.  The latter can arguably be bound in a circle (plus other limits)--the human, less so.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 04:57:54 AM by blackstaff67 »
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Offline Haru

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 08:58:28 AM »
Supernatural creatures are magical creatures, mortals use magic. That's an important distinction, I think. Magic is not something these being do, it's just who they are. A bird doesn't think about flying, it just spreads its wings and flies. And since magic is part of everything these creatures do, they will get blocked by the circle that's meant to block magic. If they could reign in their magic, they could break the circle, but that's where free will comes in. They can't help but use magic the same way a bird will spread its wings.

Though like any barrier, a magic circle can be broken down by brute force. Holding something like Toot is easy, he doesn't have much metaphysical strength. Earlking on the other hand could try to break through a circle, that's why Harry is reinforcing his circle the way he does when he summons him.

Inanimate objects don't break a circle on their own volition. But they provide a stepping stone for a creature that might otherwise be affected by the circle. Like rubber gloves to push openan electric fence. They won't open the fence on their own, but you can put them on and are now able to move it without getting shocked.
The analogy works for the air problem as well. Air insulates just as much, it's just not possible to use it as a tool, like the rubber gloves.

Mortals are only using magic, their natural state is mundane. That means they are naturally insulated and don't need anything extra to break a circle. They can use something extra, like the film cannister, but they can simply reach through a circle and it will break, unless it is designed to keep them out.

The shape is largely irrelevant, I would say. It's in the shape you draw on the floor, usually a (rough) circle. Escaping in any direction simply isn't possible, it closes to all sides, top and bottom included. If you need it to be a shape, I would imagine some sort of dome on top, rather than a flat top or some complicated shape.
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Offline Mojosilver

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 10:57:31 AM »
I'm a little fuzzy on the whole free will concept as it is mentioned in the books. I'm not sure I understand how a creature with any sort of intellect beyond animal levels can NOT have free will.

The soulless creatures in the Dresdenverse are like a artificial intelligence. A AI have no free will. It does what it is programmed to do. Yes some beings are so advanced they seem to have free will but they really don't. Characters in the Dresdenverse have aspects that dictate there default responses. But only characters with free will can choose whether or not to follow them. At least that is how I see the intelligence but no free will thing.

Offline g33k

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 04:48:57 AM »
Though like any barrier, a magic circle can be broken down by brute force. Holding something like Toot is easy, he doesn't have much metaphysical strength. Earlking on the other hand could try to break through a circle, that's why Harry is reinforcing his circle the way he does when he summons him.

... and, I just realized, this says that Ivy is really REALLY scary.  Like, Mother-Winter / Mother-Summer levels of scary (or else the Nickelheads wouldn't have gone to the lengths they went... )
 < gulp! >
Ummm.
The Denarians may just be about to be even sorrier than they already are...  I think the Archive may feel it needful to remind folks to Keep Their Hands Off ...
 

Offline PirateJack

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 12:24:17 PM »
Not even close. Even the Queens wouldn't have had much trouble with the Aquarium ambush, nevermind the Mothers.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 12:43:17 PM »
Not even close. Even the Queens wouldn't have had much trouble with the Aquarium ambush, nevermind the Mothers.
The Aquarium ambush no, but getting out of the greater circle on the island would pose a problem even for them, especially if the circle was created to specifically hold them.
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Offline vultur

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 06:25:17 AM »
It may not be that simple. The Archive is probably much closer to 'human' so would be harder to contain with a circle than a Fae of equal "metaphysical weight".

Also, Harry's circle for the Erlking was being backed up by Harry totally concentrating on holding the Erlking.

---

As for the free will thing... DV concept of free will is fairly narrow. It doesn't come into play in every choice. DV free will is about changing your nature on your own; mortals can do this, fae and such only change in response to external influences (like Toot getting more responsibilities so he grows).

Offline vultur

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 06:29:17 AM »
If that's the case why would Chauncy or Toot Toot even bother? They don't have this 'free will' thing. Shouldn't they know they can't get out?

Because it's their nature. 

Mab tells a story about the scorpion stinging the fox that's carrying it across the river ... it knows it's killing itself, but its nature is to sting, so that's what it does.

Winter Fae don't get a chance to say "hey random violence hasn't gotten me anywhere in the last 1000 years, maybe I should try being nicer."

Offline PirateJack

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2015, 10:53:37 AM »
The Aquarium ambush no, but getting out of the greater circle on the island would pose a problem even for them, especially if the circle was created to specifically hold them.

Theoretically, yes, you could create a greater circle strong enough to let you contain one of the Queens. Demonreach is pretty much exactly that; a prison for Immortals. However, the real trouble you have in capturing something of that level of metaphysical power is in capturing them in the first place. Mab would have ripped the Denarians to pieces in under a minute if they'd tried something like the Aquarium ambush on her.

Assuming you hadn't tricked her into entering the circle (and good luck with that) you'd be basically trying to beat a god-like entity to the ground before even hoping to be able to make her go where she didn't want to.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2015, 03:24:28 PM »
Theoretically, yes, you could create a greater circle strong enough to let you contain one of the Queens. Demonreach is pretty much exactly that; a prison for Immortals.
For all we know, that's the only reason the circle to hold Ivy worked as well as it did. It might have been too weak anywhere else, but by tapping into Demonreach the circle got that little extra oomph.


Quote
However, the real trouble you have in capturing something of that level of metaphysical power is in capturing them in the first place. Mab would have ripped the Denarians to pieces in under a minute if they'd tried something like the Aquarium ambush on her.
Of course. I was only speaking about holding, capturing is another problem altogether, and a much more difficult one.
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Offline eiredrake

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 06:19:32 PM »
Because it's their nature. 

Mab tells a story about the scorpion stinging the fox that's carrying it across the river ... it knows it's killing itself, but its nature is to sting, so that's what it does.

Winter Fae don't get a chance to say "hey random violence hasn't gotten me anywhere in the last 1000 years, maybe I should try being nicer."

That's an interesting way to look at it. The concept is a little hard for me to wrap my head around. Perhaps I should stop looking at these creatures as intelligent entities and more like manifestations of some natural process that merely appears intelligent.
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Offline PirateJack

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2015, 07:43:16 PM »
Why can't they be both?

Think of it this way. Humans in the Dresdenverse have aspects that define their personality, but they have Fate Points that are able to buy off compels against those aspects. Non-humans have aspects as well, but even if they have Fate Points, they can't buy off a compel against their essential nature. A Faerie could no more accept a compel to lie than you could to die by holding your breath. It's just not possible.
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Offline sdfds68

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Re: Magic Circles and Breaking Them
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2015, 12:02:03 AM »
That's an interesting way to look at it. The concept is a little hard for me to wrap my head around. Perhaps I should stop looking at these creatures as intelligent entities and more like manifestations of some natural process that merely appears intelligent.

Or intelligent entities with little control over their own actions. The scorpion knows it's gonna die because of its' own behavior. It can't do anything about that, because the rational part of it doesn't do the decision making.