The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The Fourth Holy Sword
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 06:48:00 PM ---Don't forget that Amoracchius, Fidelacchius, and Esperacchius all existed before the nails. They were all Holy Swords going by different names prior to having the nails being put in to enhance their power and grant them the moniker "Sword of the Cross".
Whether Luci has a sword or not is highly questionable. The swords, prior to the crucifixion, seem to have been tools for good in the world. But if Luci was locked up before the swords were originally crafted, then he might not have had one. Or there may be a loophole that let him make one too, after seeing that the others did. Maybe all five have the ability to empower a single weapon to embody their will, but only three have received power boosts from the crucifixion. The other two are still floating around, one being broken with no active archangel to oversee it, and the other being used for unholy and nefarious means.
As for the spearhead being the sword itself, I think it would be hard for a pre-existing sword of Luci's to be cast as a spearhead and then used in that fashion. Seems more likely that it was a simply spearhead, just like the nails were simple nails, until they all played their role. The nails combined with the Holy Swords made good Swords of the Cross, emphasizing Jesus' sacrifice rather than his murder.
If the spearhead were incorporated into an Unholy Sword sponsored by Luci, then it would presumably emphasize the murder rather than the sacrifice, and become and Unholy Sword of the Crucifixion.
A that point, Raphael would really need to get off his butt, get the broken sword, get it repaired, and incorporate the thorns from the Crown into it somehow.
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I don't particularly disagree with such an assessment all around...though I would of course say good is a point of view, I don't think the Saxons thought highly of Excalibur :P
But if we assume for a moment an idea like the bad guys getting their hands on the Spear and using it to empower an 'unholy blade' of sorts...assuming the blade itself is more or less equal to a Sword of the Cross...couldn't we content that A) the three Swords combined could still be a possible match for one somewhat MORE empowered sword or B) that if said unholy sword WERE vastly superior even to the three, that infusing any one of the others with one item from the 'horde' could then re-equalize the levels of power.
Or are we under the impression that Nic's seeking of the Spear is because it is inherently MORE powerful than any one single item...possibly all of them combined? Cuz I tend to see them more as five equal parts to a bigger 'thing', maybe a ritual or ceremony...or even an enhancement of faith magic combined.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 07:00:16 PM ---I don't particularly disagree with such an assessment all around...though I would of course say good is a point of view, I don't think the Saxons thought highly of Excalibur :P
But if we assume for a moment an idea like the bad guys getting their hands on the Spear and using it to empower an 'unholy blade' of sorts...assuming the blade itself is more or less equal to a Sword of the Cross...couldn't we content that A) the three Swords combined could still be a possible match for one somewhat MORE empowered sword or B) that if said unholy sword WERE vastly superior even to the three, that infusing any one of the others with one item from the 'horde' could then re-equalize the levels of power.
Or are we under the impression that Nic's seeking of the Spear is because it is inherently MORE powerful than any one single item...possibly all of them combined? Cuz I tend to see them more as five equal parts to a bigger 'thing', maybe a ritual or ceremony...or even an enhancement of faith magic combined.
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I'm not implying that any one sword or any one artifact is more powerful than the others. I think they would all have to be fairly equal, excepting the levels of power in which human faith might impart upon them.
- Some believe that Lucif was the first angel, and archangel at that. They believe that he might have been the most powerful before his fall. That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level, placing it above the others.
- Some believe that since Michael is supposed to be able to defeat Luci in the End Times, that he is more powerful. That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level as well.
- Maybe the three/four remaining Holy Swords divide a portion of faith in On High, whereas the fifth gest the sole concentration of faith from Down Below.
- Maybe the belief that Luci ultimately loses is enough to doom the sword to fail in a fight with one or all of the others, because deep down any faith/free will going to Luci is predicated on the idea that he will in fact lose, as their faith is truly with On High, and any power Luci gets is merely a by-product of him being the antithesis of that.
As for the artifacts...
- Maybe the three SotC are more powerful than the other two plain Holy Swords, but if you add artifacts, then they will be equal.
- Maybe speahead would be more powerful because some believe it actually landed the fatal blow.
- Maybe the nails would be more powerful because some believe he died on the cross prior to being stabbed.
- Maybe the nails divide the faith in them evenly across the three, and one-on-one would be lesser than the faith in the spearhead.
- Maybe the faith in the Shroud is more powerful because people associate it with the resurrection rather than just the death, and it could be more powerful than the others if used as a wrapped towel for snapping.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 07:32:18 PM ---I'm not implying that any one sword or any one artifact is more powerful than the others. I think they would all have to be fairly equal, excepting the levels of power in which human faith might impart upon them.
- Some believe that Lucif was the first angel, and archangel at that. They believe that he might have been the most powerful before his fall. That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level, placing it above the others.
- Some believe that since Michael is supposed to be able to defeat Luci in the End Times, that he is more powerful. That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level as well.
- Maybe the three/four remaining Holy Swords divide a portion of faith in On High, whereas the fifth gest the sole concentration of faith from Down Below.
- Maybe the belief that Luci ultimately loses is enough to doom the sword to fail in a fight with one or all of the others, because deep down any faith/free will going to Luci is predicated on the idea that he will in fact lose, as their faith is truly with On High, and any power Luci gets is merely a by-product of him being the antithesis of that.
As for the artifacts...
- Maybe the three SotC are more powerful than the other two plain Holy Swords, but if you add artifacts, then they will be equal.
- Maybe speahead would be more powerful because some believe it actually landed the fatal blow.
- Maybe the nails would be more powerful because some believe he died on the cross prior to being stabbed.
- Maybe the nails divide the faith in them evenly across the three, and one-on-one would be lesser than the faith in the spearhead.
- Maybe the faith in the Shroud is more powerful because people associate it with the resurrection rather than just the death, and it could be more powerful than the others if used as a wrapped towel for snapping.
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So ultimately what combination works best here in your view with how all this is gonna end up shaking out? As I say I think the artifacts are all pretty much equal...1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E of one another...mostly because I tend to think that while they may have properties that allow them separate purposes or 'abilities' ultimately their 'true' power is to be used in conjunction with one another.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 07:43:10 PM ---So ultimately what combination works best here in your view with how all this is gonna end up shaking out? As I say I think the artifacts are all pretty much equal...1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E of one another...mostly because I tend to think that while they may have properties that allow them separate purposes or 'abilities' ultimately their 'true' power is to be used in conjunction with one another.
--- End quote ---
It's hard to say. I think they'd all be the same.
But do the swords grow more powerful at times, if an archangel is actively sponsoring the actions rather than just passively? For example, was Fidelacchius more powerful at Chichen Itza when (theoretical sponsor) Gabriel was speaking through Murphy? When she pulled the sword, the area filled with white light, rather than a white light simply encompassing the sword. A swipe of the sword cut through the combined wills of all of the LoON and the RK.
Was that normal behavior, and could that be done against any bad guy? Or was it more powerful than usual? Did the sword's range and ability increase due to an extra presence, or does it simply match what is required? I mean, in SMALL FAVOR, Michael's sword is shining super bright, but it only cuts through twenty feet or so of myrk surrounding them. Is the myrk cast by a few dozen hobs more powerful than the combined might of the thirteen most powerful Rampires at their place of power, each of which was nearly equal to Odin's power?
It seems like there's variation in power levels as they are. Once we add in all the other factors, I just don't know. Could Luci even actively sponsor a sword wielded by Nico, even when he's already got another angel in his head? And would it require another archangel to actively sponsor a sword to counter it?
I just don't know.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 07:59:54 PM ---It's hard to say. I think they'd all be the same.
But do the swords grow more powerful at times, if an archangel is actively sponsoring the actions rather than just passively? For example, was Fidelacchius more powerful at Chichen Itza when (theoretical sponsor) Gabriel was speaking through Murphy? When she pulled the sword, the area filled with white light, rather than a white light simply encompassing the sword. A swipe of the sword cut through the combined wills of all of the LoON and the RK.
Was that normal behavior, and could that be done against any bad guy? Or was it more powerful than usual? Did the sword's range and ability increase due to an extra presence, or does it simply match what is required? I mean, in SMALL FAVOR, Michael's sword is shining super bright, but it only cuts through twenty feet or so of myrk surrounding them. Is the myrk cast by a few dozen hobs more powerful than the combined might of the thirteen most powerful Rampires at their place of power, each of which was nearly equal to Odin's power?
It seems like there's variation in power levels as they are. Once we add in all the other factors, I just don't know. Could Luci even actively sponsor a sword wielded by Nico, even when he's already got another angel in his head? And would it require another archangel to actively sponsor a sword to counter it?
I just don't know.
--- End quote ---
That makes me wonder if the swords aren't at their least powerful in some ways when facing off against Denarians?
I say this because as you say earlier many incarnations of these blades could be viewed as 'holy swords' prior to taking on roles as Swords of the Cross, (though I wonder more if they weren't all always SoTC in the DV). But either way it shakes out, they are used over the course of time to fight and counter 'evil'. The one glaring exception is the Denarians...whom they are perfectly able to fight, injure, kill...but only if said Denarian keeps his coin and desire to remain unrepentant. Because they are still human. And the power winks outs instantly if they divest themselves of the coins...a vampire or a hob has no such protection. So it makes me wonder if the Swords don't have an auto-limiter in place when it comes to fighting the Denarians because at the end of the day as Michael has said many times...their job is to try and SAVE the Denarians from themselves and the Fallen.
So I would argue the Swords are never less powerful in some ways than when they are fighting a being who, at base level, is still human.
The Hobbs represented a supernatural threat, the Sword reacted in kind. Blindingly so. But they were still only SO much of a threat. It reacted even more at CI, proportionally to the threat represented there. So I think intrinsically tied into the swords power are these 'limiters' that can come off or be cast aside based on the evil before them. Now whether it requires angelic oversight and their 'patron' to decide, i.e. Gabriel thru Murphy...or is it an automatic process? And if so, which gives the angels more of a 'link' or avenue to act...the ability to remove such limiters, or the pathway created because more power is being drawn on, therefore the conduit has grown stronger allowing them access?
Its all rather intriguing.
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