Medical Treatment

[Taran]

I don't think this is a good idea. It's fiddly and it might make it optimal to inflict mild consequences on yourself in order to have them healed for extra stress boxes.

You say this because I think you are misunderstanding.  It is ALWAYS better to have a mild available, since that soaks 2 stress.  A treated mild consequence can only soak 1 stress.  It doesn't add a box at the end of your track.  As sdfds68 says, it's more like armour.  Armour that only works for a single hit.  With the added down-side that you have to re-start the healing process. (but you could take or leave the last part).

This sounds almost exactly like what Theogony was suggesting. And my issue with it is basically the same; it's fiddly.

Also, I'm not sure I like how it works alongside Recovery.

I'm not sure it's fiddly.  Especially since you don't seem to like the more straight-forward - less fiddly solutions, such as re-naming an aspect and only allowing a +1 on the tag.   And it doesn't affect recovery powers at all.  Recovery powers work exactly the same.  The box lasts until you heal the consequence and you heal consequences faster with recovery.  If you mean that it'll make recovery powers less useful (because you have to reset the healing process), then I guess that is an issue - but you can take that part out.  I'd added it for flavour because we were talking about how tended injuries could get re-injured - or you can leave it in since using the extra boxes is completely optional.

Depending on what level of recovery you have, you may never need to be tended.  A severe recovers at the end of a scene If you have mythic.  At most, you might get your severe tended if you have inhuman recovery.

In any case, I'd do it like this:

mild:
- doesn't require a check to start healing process
- difficulty 2 to get 1 temporary 'armour'

Moderate:
- requires a check of 2 to start healing process (journeyman level: someone able to re-set a bone, put on a sling, do stiches)
- requires a 4 to get the armour

Severe:
 - requires a check of 3 or 4 -probably depends on the consequence...(professional/veteran status: a doctor or someone who can do surgery or deal with mass trauma)
 - requires a 6 to get the extra armour


So, if you go to a hospital, you get the basic recovery.  But if someone does really well, they've mended you up so well that the injury is less of an issue for you.

Without an injury, you can soak up 6 stress (with a severe)
With a severe and hospital care you can't soak up anything - but you are healing
With a severe and extremely good care you can soak up 1 stress and you are healing

It doesn't prevent tags or invokes or anything.

Honestly, I can't think of anything else.  I'm out of ideas for now.

@sdfds68:
I think your solution already happens, unless I'm misunderstanding you.  As is, you can't do anything about consequences except wait for them to heal, therefore the group is forced to refocus their efforts on alternative solutions for things until their group is healed up.

Other options are to do things like say:  I need more gear.  I want to acquire x,y,z.  These things are hard to get and will take a 2 weeks to come in.
GM-hand-wavy-ness:  A 2 weeks pass, everyone is healed and you have your gear.

But that's a bit boring (boring until the party finds out about all the stuff the Bad Guys did in that time).  As you pointed out, there's more fun ways to 'make time pass'.

But it still doesn't make the doctor in the party any more useful for having that stunt.

[sdfds68]

But it still doesn't make the doctor in the party any more useful for having that stunt.

It is that what this is about? I thought this thread was the problems Consequences inherently cause in slowing down the action.

Buffing the Doctor stunt is easy. Just let them dose everybody to gills with meth and morphine for free bonuses, and call it a trapping.

[Taran]

It is that what this is about? I thought this thread was the problems Consequences inherently cause in slowing down the action.

Buffing the Doctor stunt is easy. Just let them dose everybody to gills with meth and morphine for free bonuses, and call it a trapping.

No it's not specifically about the doctor stunt.

For your convenience, here is my opening post

(click to show/hide)

Healing wounds and medical treatment is dealt with, pretty much, narratively in DFRPG.

You need 'an excuse to start the healing process' and, after that, consequences go away based on their severity and the amount of time that lapses (hours, days, weeks - or scenes, sessions, scenarios, milestones).

The doctor stunt lets you treat someone and give them 'an excuse to start the healing process' - but it doesn't actually heal wounds.

For the same refresh, you could take a recovery power or, for no refresh, you can take Wizard's Constitution.

I'd like to figure out a fair way to allow 'mundane' treatment affect consequences.  This thread is to brain-storm ways.

.


[/quote]

  It's the fact that there is no mechanical benefit to getting medical treatment.  Because of this, the doctor stunt is useless.  You're better off having doctor as an aspect and saving the refresh for something else.

Only supernatural powers affect healing and I find that annoying.  Medical treatment is purely narrative.  (As you've pointed out already) I think there should be some kind of mechanical advantage to actually going to a hospital.  It's too hand wavey in my mind.

As I said in my first post, many people get around the 'I need an excuse for healing' by taking wizards constitution and, in fact, it's a better use of your refresh than taking the doctor stunt unless you are pure mortal.

[Remi]

As I said in my first post, many people get around the 'I need an excuse for healing' by taking wizards constitution and, in fact, it's a better use of your refresh than taking the doctor stunt unless you are pure mortal.

Taking the Doctor stunt allows you to start the healing process for moderate and severe (in a hospital) consequences afflicted on any number of mortals. I assume that most GMs won't allow someone with Doctor to treat themselves for anything but mild consequences, so you'd never take it to treat yourself.

Inhuman Recovery and Wizard's Constitution only work on the character who takes the power, not on anyone else. That's the real difference here. If your campaign has no pure PC mortals who need medical treatment, then yes, the Doctor stunt is useless. But if the PCs in your campaign are mostly Pure Mortals, then it means that one character can "heal" all the others. If that character took Inhuman Recovery or Wizard's Con, he couldn't help the others heal in any useful way.

Remember, Pure Mortals get two free refresh for the inconvenience of not having access to special powers. Is it "worth" it to play a character like Murphy, who's an expert at a lot of mundane things, instead of a powerful wizard like Harry or a White Court Vampire like Thomas?

What we're talking about here is character concept. If your concept is a Pure Mortal, you don't have the option of taking those powers. All it really means is that players of Pure Mortal characters will have to depend on NPC doctors if no else wants to spend refresh on Doctor.

[Taran]

But it's not about the doctor stunt but I'd allow someone to treat themselves - you see it all the time in the movies.  I've also heard stories of military field medics splinting their own broken bones, then continue marching.   It probably doesn't happen often, but it's 'heroic' enough, that I'd allow it.  It would just be a situation where you'd actually have to roll. - and the difficulty might be high.

In the game I'm running, where there's lots of wilderness and no easy access to hospitals, I can see the doctor stunt being very useful.  It's not really like that in a modern city game.  "I go to the hospital" has its own draw-backs sometimes (uncomfortable questions, time taken away from chasing the bad guy etc...) but overall, it's pretty easy and doesn't add much.  I feel going to the hospital should have more of an effect on the injury. 

'In game reason to heal' doesn't really fit what medical treatment does.  Having someone tend injuries does quicken the healing time, prevent infection etc...

That said, it's not a one-time thing.  With serious enough injuries, you usually have to go in multiple times, have dressings replaced etc..

I wonder if that's a better way to go about it.  Maybe you need to have injuries tended multiple times(depending on the severity of the consequence) to allow them to heal quickly....it could be a lesser form of inhuman recovery.

I've also come around to thinking that you can't really tend minor consequences.  They're the kind of thing that a doctor might dress and say, 'suck it up, it'll get better soon'.

Anyways, please don't try to convince me that I don't need a rule for medical treatment...since the whole purpose of the thread is to brain-storm rules for medical treatment.  I'm just trying to find different options for people's games.  Some may not be ideal and some may work, depending on the group.  I'd love to find something I could use in my own games.

[Remi]

I've also come around to thinking that you can't really tend minor consequences.  They're the kind of thing that a doctor might dress and say, 'suck it up, it'll get better soon'.

The book appears to be inconsistent on this. The rules for Scholarship on p. 141 say that you need First Aid from Scholarship to start recovery, but on page 204 it describes mild consequences this way:

Think of things that are bad enough to make you say “Walk it off/rub some dirt in it!” (Examples: Bruised Hand, Nasty Shiner, Winded, Flustered, Distracted.)

None of those examples requires any attention from a doctor, other than for them to poke you, take an X-ray and say, "Why are you burdening the health care system? It ain't broke. Take some ibuprofen."

Anyways, please don't try to convince me that I don't need a rule for medical treatment...since the whole purpose of the thread is to brain-storm rules for medical treatment.  I'm just trying to find different options for people's games.  Some may not be ideal and some may work, depending on the group.  I'd love to find something I could use in my own games.

The rules about medical treatment are written to model modern medicine as practiced in cities like Chicago. That typically requires doctors and hospitals. If your setting is in a place like Afghanistan where characters have field medic training and equipment and drugs to go with it, then you have your rationale. It won't "heal" them in any real sense, but it will patch them up and inure them to pain to allow them to get through the next couple of days (which is what's always happening to Harry when he goes to Butters for all his aches and pains).

But if they try to do that for the next three scenarios without getting any real rest, they may well die of a stroke, a pulmonary embolism, sepsis, exhaustion or develop a nasty morphine addiction. Harry always seems to take a year between novels to recuperate from the damage inflicted on him over the span of a few days. If your characters aren't given that kind of time to heal in-game perhaps your scenarios should be spread out over more game time.

I know you want rules, but the first rule in any RPG should be, "Toss out any rules that get in the way of telling your story." If the characters need to heal faster than the rules say, change the rules. Your scenarios should be about the player characters in the campaign, and the rules should be subservient to the development of those characters.

Thus, you might get more concrete suggestions if you shared the specific details about the characters in the campaign.

[Taran]

None of those examples requires any attention from a doctor, other than for them to poke you, take an X-ray and say, "Why are you burdening the health care system? It ain't broke. Take some ibuprofen."

Yeah, that's what I meant.

It could be any setting.  I run one in a modern day setting, I play in one that happens in different locations all over the world but my character is part fomor so can't go to a hospital but that's irrelevant because she has recovery, I play one that's set in WWII and we're working for the underground, I run another in 1700's wild west.

So, getting the healing process started is more or less easy depending on the setting.  But, let's take the part-fomor.

She doesn't need medical treatment.  That said, I think it would make sense that, if she got medical treatment for her wounds, they would heal quicker/more efficiently/better.

I don't see why the two methods have to be mutually exclusive.  Why can't something with recovery benefit from a hospital stay?

[sdfds68]

The idea with the medical aspects and the tags paying off compels good. Like, it could fit right into almost anyones' game without being noticed as a house rule.

Everything else seems to be about getting characters from one fight to next more quickly. But it just feels like to me that there's no real point to that. Instead focusing on player action to increase the number of fight scenes, it would be easier to cut on the amount of time needed to heal anything, and maybe skip the 'reason to heal' bit.

So instead of me suggesting whatever comes off the top of my head, I'm going to try and remake the entire system of consequences and healing. And I think I'm going to do it multiple times, for different types of games at different narrative paces. Be back in a bit.

[Taran]

I'd like to point out that some of the methods presented don't affect recovery time at all.  The armour method simply offsets the consequence by 1 shift.

This isn't really about getting a character into a fight quicker.

So instead of me suggesting whatever comes off the top of my head, I'm going to try and remake the entire system of consequences and healing. And I think I'm going to do it multiple times, for different types of games at different narrative paces. Be back in a bit.

I look forward to it!

[Lawgiver]

Before we go much further here, I think we might need to make sure we’re all on the same page about what constitutes the various levels of consequences. From YS, P 204 we have:

Mild: Last for one scene after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Walk it off/rub some dirt in it!”
Examples given as Aspects: BRUISED HAND, NASTY SHINER, WINDED, FLUSTERED, DISTRACTED

These are very small ‘problems’; almost ephemeral. BRUISED HAND may mean something as simple as accidentally smacking it on a door frame up to whacking your thumb with a hammer. It hurts for a few moments and might be DISTRACTING but within a minute or so, you’re good to go. WINDED? Take a minute to catch your breath. FLUSTERED? Take a minute to calm down and focus. I wouldn’t think most of these things would be relevant much longer than two or three exchanges (depending on how long your group tends to take for an exchange to occur), let alone an entire scene. They really don’t even need any medical care whatsoever, just a minute or so to ‘deal with’ – then they’re non-issues. I think the “after recovery starts” wording is a bit… misleading? How can recovery be delayed, really? (some insight for us lost cubs might help)

Moderate: Lasts until the end of the next session after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Man, you really should go take care of that/get some rest.” Examples given as Aspects: BELLY SLASH, BAD FIRST DEGREE BURN, TWISTED ANKLE, EXHAUSTED, DRUNK. These are, indeed, more severe than “Mild”. They last a little longer and one of them, BELLY SLASH might, in fact, require some attention. BURN might or might not. It’s first degree -- pretty mild as burns go. Sunburns are an example. They’re superficial. Almost never have blisters. Almost never any risk of infection. They can be ‘painful’ (more likely just uncomfortable) for a few days, but they’re hardly ‘game breaking’ regarding physical activity or mental concentration. Just put some aloe and a band-aid on it and you’re pretty much good. Twisted ankle -- how bad? If it’s bad enough to qualify for Moderate, then I’d say (at least with my group) it would be 50/50 whether or not they’re going to bother with “medical attention”; wrap it up tight and keep truckin’. EXHAUSTED and DRUNK just need time. Medical attention won’t do squat (unless you count handing out stimulants). For those two, again, I think the “until the next session after recovery starts” can be misleading. If I end a session with scenario complete and I have a player whose character has, say, EXHAUSTED, as an aspect  – and the next scenario is designed to be a week later – why on earth is that person still EXHAUSTED all through that entire session? I’d do the hand-wavy thing and give them the recovery – they’ve had a week of sleep to get over it. Same with DRUNK. I don’t know of anyone who can do a one-night drinking spree and stay trashed for a week…

Severe: Last for the next scenario (or two to three sessions, whichever is longer) after recovery starts. Think of things that are bad enough to make you say, “Man, you really need to go to the ER/Get serious help.” Examples given as Aspects: BROKEN LEG, Bad SECOND-DEGREE BURNS (see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn#By_depth   for descriptions of what such burns can be like), CRIPPLING SHAME, TRAUMA-INDUCED PHOBIA. Ok, now we’re talking ‘consequences’. Now we’re talking the realm of need for professional attention.

With the possible exception of BELLY SLASH in Moderate, I personally see little to no need/justification for involvement of real medical attention until we get to this level. And once we’re at this level the character is going to be severely hampered or even sidelined for an extended period of time (weeks if not months).

Until we get to the Severe level, we’re talking adjudicating context which means the door is open to all kinds of ‘fixes’ that I don’t think can be quantified in a simple house-rule; each case is likely to be different and not fit ‘the mold’ of that particular rule. I think chasing this Chimera is mostly a waste of time.

Sorry.

[Taran]

Regarding time and recovery:

In certain cases,
it’d be more appropriate to measure recovery
with in-game time, like days or weeks—see
page 314 in Running the Game for more details
on that.

In terms of story time, recovering from a mild
consequence takes about an hour. Recovering
from a moderate consequence takes anywhere
from a day to a week. Recovering from a severe
consequence takes several weeks to a couple of
months

So yes, you are correct that some consequences won't last beyond the frame-work of the story if the Gm says "two weeks have passed".  Also, since consequences can be broadly interpreted, they may not always require a hospital visit but I disagree that you don't have to worry about it until you reach the severe level.  It would depend on the moderate consequence but a 'festering gash' might be a moderate that requires a doctor to prescribe antibiotics.  It's not much of a wound but it won't go away without attention.  Consequences aren't limited to the examples in the book and they can have as little or as much weight as the group/gm/player puts on them.

But when they do decide that medical attention is warranted, it might be nice to have something to play with other than, 'you start healing'.

Until we get to the Severe level, we’re talking adjudicating context which means the door is open to all kinds of ‘fixes’ that I don’t think can be quantified in a simple house-rule; each case is likely to be different and not fit ‘the mold’ of that particular rule. I think chasing this Chimera is mostly a waste of time.

Sorry.

But if you think it's a waste of time, feel free to stop derailing the thread.  I feel like I'm getting more, 'this is a stupid idea' than actual practical ideas.

I've played the game since it first came out and, I think the only time I've ever seen "going to the hospital" become an issue is when the GM wants to remove NPC's from the game.  "Joe is hurt.  he can't help you - he's at the hospital for a couple of days."

Honestly, I think if you're going to pace the game based on consequences:  "you can't go after Bad Guy because your intestines are falling out.  You need to spend 2 weeks recovering.  In the mean-time Bad guy's plans are going to go forward".

That feels like it's a compel.

Harry has(had) Wizard's Constitution.  He doesn't need 'an excuse to start the healing process' - he never actually needs to visit a hospital - and, yet, Butters patches him up.  Obviously because it has some kind of effect.  Is it purely narrative?  Is it just to break up the pace of the novel?  Give him a chance to recover his stress track?  Catch his breath?  It could be but I don't like that.  If I was playing Butters as a character,  I would want all those procedures to actually help Harry's character otherwise I've wasted a stunt.

[Theogony_IX]

I honestly think the idea you currently have is pretty solid.  (though I may be biased)  Right now it just needs to be tested.  If I were running a game right now, I would be testing it.  Maybe some others would be willing to try it out in there games for a bit and report back.  More data is better when evaluating.

[Taran]

I honestly think the idea you currently have is pretty solid.  (though I may be biased)  Right now it just needs to be tested.  If I were running a game right now, I would be testing it.  Maybe some others would be willing to try it out in there games for a bit and report back.  More data is better when evaluating.

I'm running a game I could use it in.  Are you talking about the armour method?

[Theogony_IX]

I'm running a game I could use it in.  Are you talking about the armour method?

If by armour, you mean the option for a filled consequence to soak up 1 stress after being tended, then yes.  Even if the method isn't perfect, it won't ruin your game, and you can adjust things if they aren't working right, or even go back to the RAW if you need to.  IMO, trying out new rules to make the game more fun is a big part of how the GM has fun too.

[Sanctaphrax]

Lawgiver, sdfds68, you should probably read this exchange. Because if your posts are any indication, you've completely misunderstood what this thread is about.

You say this because I think you are misunderstanding.  It is ALWAYS better to have a mild available, since that soaks 2 stress.  A treated mild consequence can only soak 1 stress.  It doesn't add a box at the end of your track.  As sdfds68 says, it's more like armour.  Armour that only works for a single hit.  With the added down-side that you have to re-start the healing process. (but you could take or leave the last part).

That was in response to "- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled."

Especially since you don't seem to like the more straight-forward - less fiddly solutions, such as re-naming an aspect and only allowing a +1 on the tag.

I like renaming aspects, actually. And I don't dislike only allowing a +1 on the tag, I'm just pointing out that it can't possibly matter unless you change how consequence tags work.

And it doesn't affect recovery powers at all.  Recovery powers work exactly the same.

That's basically the problem.

mild:
- doesn't require a check to start healing process
- difficulty 2 to get 1 temporary 'armour'

Moderate:
- requires a check of 2 to start healing process (journeyman level: someone able to re-set a bone, put on a sling, do stiches)
- requires a 4 to get the armour

Severe:
 - requires a check of 3 or 4 -probably depends on the consequence...(professional/veteran status: a doctor or someone who can do surgery or deal with mass trauma)
 - requires a 6 to get the extra armour

Having thought about it a bit more, I think it might be better not to use set difficulties. Varying difficulties based on GM discretion would make rolls more important/interesting, and binary distinctions like "has Doctor or healing Power? Y/N" would be simpler.