McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft
Switching between editor mode and creator mode
Shecky:
Most publishing-house developmental/content/story/etc. editors don't mess with particulate-level correction, sticking instead primarily with story-level issues; typically, the only people dealing with those are the copyeditor and then the proofreader. They're very much after the fact of the truly creative phase of the book; while the author tends to have the final say-so on whether to accept or stet the edits made by the copyeditor and proofreader (and thereby sometimes adjust or reconfirm the artistic angle), the creative aspect is largely finished well before that point. That being said, I can tell you that a copyeditor who misses 1 of 5 errors simply won't have work for long; 80% is rotten for a professional copyeditor. 95% is better, but in my experience, there's a rough average of one-ish straight-up error (i.e., not a question of style or preference but of actual mistake) per page, be it a typo, omitted/doubled word, that kind of thing); let's call it one in every two hundred words. Picking an arbitrary average of 100k words per novel (which feels about right across the eighty I've done in the past year and a half), that comes to about 500 pure errors per novel. Catch 95% of those and you still leave 25 errors in the novel...and that rate gets seen by everyone, as even the least error-sensitive reader eventually notices at that rate of a clear mistake roughly every sixteen pages. No, 95% is still too much...hence the proofreader as a belt-and-suspenders step. And even with the proofer, some errors will inevitably slip through, but by that point, they're infrequent enough to bother none but the most quiveringly indignant, eager-to-take offense reader.
Anyway, splitting the editing between developmental and copy, then finishing up with a proofread, is a good process, one that lets the big-picture story items be hashed out in their own time, making sure those are done and set before that final superficial polish is done. But yeah, you're absolutely right that assembling a full editorial team can be pricey as hell (although my mind boggles at the figure of $25,000 you mentioned for editing; are you sure that doesn't include cover artist, internal artist, typesetter [or whatever the digital equivalent is now] and publicist, among others?). I'm not cheap—the cats have to eat, after all—and I can see $4000 easily spent on quality editorial work. That's one of the strongest arguments out there for going the traditional-publishing route instead of self-publishing: you're putting the financial burden for that upfront work on a much larger institution that can afford to shell it out (although even that isn't a given in terms of top quality, but YMMV).
Anyway, as I said, I know this is only peripheral to your original post; sorry for derailing. Just thought I'd clear up a touch about the one aspect I truly know intimately. Hope it helps. :)
slrogers:
--- Quote from: Shecky on February 27, 2015, 04:04:30 AM ---Most publishing-house developmental/content/story/etc. editors don't mess with particulate-level correction, sticking instead primarily with story-level issues; typically, the only people dealing with those are the copyeditor and then the proofreader. They're very much after the fact of the truly creative phase of the book; while the author tends to have the final say-so on whether to accept or stet the edits made by the copyeditor and proofreader (and thereby sometimes adjust or reconfirm the artistic angle), the creative aspect is largely finished well before that point. That being said, I can tell you that a copyeditor who misses 1 of 5 errors simply won't have work for long; 80% is rotten for a professional copyeditor. 95% is better, but in my experience, there's a rough average of one-ish straight-up error (i.e., not a question of style or preference but of actual mistake) per page, be it a typo, omitted/doubled word, that kind of thing); let's call it one in every two hundred words. Picking an arbitrary average of 100k words per novel (which feels about right across the eighty I've done in the past year and a half), that comes to about 500 pure errors per novel. Catch 95% of those and you still leave 25 errors in the novel...and that rate gets seen by everyone, as even the least error-sensitive reader eventually notices at that rate of a clear mistake roughly every sixteen pages. No, 95% is still too much...hence the proofreader as a belt-and-suspenders step. And even with the proofer, some errors will inevitably slip through, but by that point, they're infrequent enough to bother none but the most quiveringly indignant, eager-to-take offense reader.
Anyway, splitting the editing between developmental and copy, then finishing up with a proofread, is a good process, one that lets the big-picture story items be hashed out in their own time, making sure those are done and set before that final superficial polish is done. But yeah, you're absolutely right that assembling a full editorial team can be pricey as hell (although my mind boggles at the figure of $25,000 you mentioned for editing; are you sure that doesn't include cover artist, internal artist, typesetter [or whatever the digital equivalent is now] and publicist, among others?). I'm not cheap—the cats have to eat, after all—and I can see $4000 easily spent on quality editorial work. That's one of the strongest arguments out there for going the traditional-publishing route instead of self-publishing: you're putting the financial burden for that upfront work on a much larger institution that can afford to shell it out (although even that isn't a given in terms of top quality, but YMMV).
Anyway, as I said, I know this is only peripheral to your original post; sorry for derailing. Just thought I'd clear up a touch about the one aspect I truly know intimately. Hope it helps. :)
--- End quote ---
I think the >$25,000 might be for all editing combined or it might just be for the developmental editing (once I see a price tag that big I stop looking, knowing that it's way out of my price range) but on http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2013/05/the-real-costs-of-self-publishing-book/ it looks like "high end" of just the developmental editing is around that. It looks like (from that web page) for just the copy-editing ranges from about $0.012 to about $0.10 per word. (so $4,000 sounds like a fair price especially for someone who won't leave more than 5 errors for 500 that are fixed. -- I'm hoping that for my next book I can budget at least that much in. I'm also hoping that by then I'm get to be good enough that you'd catch less than 500 out of a 100,000 word book -- on this last one it was embarrassingly orders of magnitude bigger, I think 4x or more.)
But that being said I think I found my inspiration to do better at both the details and the over-arching creative landscape. In compare writing to art work I found that the writings of Vincent van Gogh to his brother, while he was struggling to make a living at painting are helpful, "As soon as I have more power over my brush, ... it will not be long before you need not send me money any more." --- I just have to learn better how to hold my brush. Hopefully it will not be long before each reader will see in every detail of my works, the strength of my passion and be enthralled with the story. I love too much the dream to let the minor set backs of not being good enough hold me back. One of these days I'll not just be "good enough" but set new standards for "as good as it gets." I love dreaming far bigger than I am and stretching to see just how far I can reach (it's just slightly unfortunate that I have to stretch a little more than most of you).
Shecky:
--- Quote from: slrogers on March 05, 2015, 12:28:11 AM ---I think the >$25,000 might be for all editing combined or it might just be for the developmental editing (once I see a price tag that big I stop looking, knowing that it's way out of my price range) but on http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2013/05/the-real-costs-of-self-publishing-book/ it looks like "high end" of just the developmental editing is around that. It looks like (from that web page) for just the copy-editing ranges from about $0.012 to about $0.10 per word. (so $4,000 sounds like a fair price especially for someone who won't leave more than 5 errors for 500 that are fixed. -- I'm hoping that for my next book I can budget at least that much in. I'm also hoping that by then I'm get to be good enough that you'd catch less than 500 out of a 100,000 word book -- on this last one it was embarrassingly orders of magnitude bigger, I think 4x or more.)
--- End quote ---
Yikes, no. $25k for a dev edit is insane. $4000 is more like the high end on dev edits for a novel. As for copyedits, my rates work out (I go hourly, but it comes out in this range) to roughly a penny a word, and I'm in the middle of what most copyeditors charge. No copyeditor would charge (or, to be clear, be worth) ten cents a word. Holy cow, no. The EFA massively inflated their rates on both dev and copyediting simply as a bargaining tool; what they're claiming to be the "low end" is really the middle of the road, with the upper end being a hilariously wrong thing. I mean, seriously, $7000 for a book? I've worked with some authors who were pretty various with their grammar, spelling, punctuation and the like, and I've never had a single book that would require even half that much copyediting (and that's including the couple of 900-pagers I have under my belt).
In short, no, I'm still going to confirm that $25k in no way represents only the dev/copyedits, that it must be the entire cost for a spare-no-expenses self-pubbed book. Publicity, physical-book printing & distribution, negotiation for big-box-store shelf space, the whole shebang...and even then, it's a shocking figure. If a prospective self-pubber is at all diligent with research, he or she could easily come away with maybe $5000 in expenses and get one heck of a pro-level product.
slrogers:
--- Quote from: Shecky on March 05, 2015, 02:49:56 AM ---Yikes, no. $25k for a dev edit is insane. $4000 is more like the high end on dev edits for a novel. As for copyedits, my rates work out (I go hourly, but it comes out in this range) to roughly a penny a word, and I'm in the middle of what most copyeditors charge. No copyeditor would charge (or, to be clear, be worth) ten cents a word. Holy cow, no. The EFA massively inflated their rates on both dev and copyediting simply as a bargaining tool; what they're claiming to be the "low end" is really the middle of the road, with the upper end being a hilariously wrong thing. I mean, seriously, $7000 for a book? I've worked with some authors who were pretty various with their grammar, spelling, punctuation and the like, and I've never had a single book that would require even half that much copyediting (and that's including the couple of 900-pagers I have under my belt).
In short, no, I'm still going to confirm that $25k in no way represents only the dev/copyedits, that it must be the entire cost for a spare-no-expenses self-pubbed book. Publicity, physical-book printing & distribution, negotiation for big-box-store shelf space, the whole shebang...and even then, it's a shocking figure. If a prospective self-pubber is at all diligent with research, he or she could easily come away with maybe $5000 in expenses and get one heck of a pro-level product.
--- End quote ---
That's good news. Though it still makes a strong case for trying to find a publisher instead of doing it all ones self. At least that way you have someone up front tell you that your writing is worth at least that much and that they're willing to put up the money for it. But then again, college level classes might cost about that as well, and you could chalk up any money lost in the endeavor as the cost of learning. Or one could use the blunt force bootstrap method of spending as little as possible and just make the corrections as quickly as readers identify them (unfortunately, that seems to annoy readers).
Shecky:
--- Quote from: slrogers on March 05, 2015, 04:09:47 PM ---That's good news. Though it still makes a strong case for trying to find a publisher instead of doing it all ones self. At least that way you have someone up front tell you that your writing is worth at least that much and that they're willing to put up the money for it. But then again, college level classes might cost about that as well, and you could chalk up any money lost in the endeavor as the cost of learning. Or one could use the blunt force bootstrap method of spending as little as possible and just make the corrections as quickly as readers identify them (unfortunately, that seems to annoy readers).
--- End quote ---
It's a tough choice either way. I have nothing but sympathy for people trying to break into the field.
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