The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 15, 2015, 10:51:21 PM ---In SK, the net result overall is to remove a dangerously errant Summer Lady and restore the balance.
In SmF, the net result is to keep the Archive from falling to the Denarians, which benefits both courts. And Mab makes it clear to Harry that Summer's forces opposing him are not there to stop him but to compel him to be Winter's Emissary for this job when she can't (by her own given word in SK) do so herself.
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Both of those results benefit the world in general so yes if you wish to attribute it to Summer and Winter both coming out equally I suppose technically you are correct. But originally you made it sound as if Mab's actions end up benefitting both Courts almost by design, I very much disagree with that notion.
--- Quote ---Their Knight is killed by their own rogue Lady. And killing rogue ladies is not a loss to the Court they belong to, that I can see; they get replaced.
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It really doesn't matter HOW they get killed, they still died. Aurora is replaced by a totally inexperienced and unprepared Lily, who just a few short years later herself is led to her own downfall. And she was not Maeve, Aurora still fulfilled her role for all those centuries. Ronald Reul who would have been a match for just about any Winter Knight over that time period is replaced by another novice who takes several years to come into his own confidence and power, who lost pretty much all his friends and NOW has lost his lady and the woman he was probably in love with. Now they have another Lady who never wanted that kind of power, even if she was born to it and I happen to actually be of the mindset Sarissa will be good for both Summer and Titania in the long run...still doesn't change the fact that its going to be a rough transition for her.
But no matter that these roles get filled, it cannot be good for the stability of a powerful faction to keep rotating out all their experience from the most important positions every decade or so when an enemy like Nemesis is lurking. And clearly Aurora's death, while 'necessary', pretty much killed Titania's will. Harry goes to her and asks for help when he doesn't know whether to believe Mab or Maeve and she basically shrugs him off saying she no longer cares if the world dies, HER world died in her mind. What if Mab does for some reason get infected, who will protect humanity if not Titania when that's her whole purpose?
So yes, the Summer Court gets shafted a whole helluva lot and to me whatever slight benefits they may have gained are far outweighed by what they've lost in the past say 15 years...even more obvious when you see how much Winter has gained.
--- Quote ---None of the gruffs up until Eldest are particularly plausible challenges for Harry, and Eldest basically slowly gives Harry hints until Harry figures out how to get out of the situation; this is not the action of an Eldest-level entity that wants Harry dead and is not an idiot.
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Tiny gruff was more than a match for Harry but the Hobs helped get him out of that, the other hitters could have gotten him too if Thomas hadn't come along so lets not discount that they weren't a match for Harry, he was pretty well on the ropes.
--- Quote ---Harry cites it as specifically feeling like the mordite he dealt with in DM.
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Like I said, i'm fine with the belief that Raith is protected by Outsiders...but Harry's FEELING is not an explicit notion that it can only be Outsiders like you made it out to be.
--- Quote ---Harry offers that as one possible theory alongside external corruption, and is not at all sure of it.
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Not being sure doesn't preclude the option, just means there's still some information about it that needs to be resolved.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: groinkick on February 15, 2015, 09:31:17 PM ---There is a big difference attacking Arctis Tor, and taking on hundreds of millions of Fae many of which are watching the Outer Gates... The ones attacking may have needed her to do something that she could do, but they couldn't. Just because someone wanted something from her doesn't mean they wanted her to be defeated, and allowing the Outsiders to break through.
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Standing troop count of 50,000 is still quite a lot to take on and seeing as how the majority of the Outsider's forces would ALSO be at the Gates, i'm not certain how that helps your case.
Carl:
--- Quote ---Lea is second only to Mab, (and I guess third overall but Mother Winter isn't really active in that sense), in overall strength AND has a strong personality that is all her own. Maeve WANTED the freedom that being infected provided her in her own mind so she was unwilling to fight it, in her mind it gave her exactly what she wanted. Cat Sith is an awfully prideful creature, even if he wasn't force taken almost right away he might not have gone to Mab like Lea did because it would be a stain on his reputation, something he might want to fight off himself. So he is both not strong enough, and not willful enough. My two cents anyway.
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Lea may be second to Mab politically but i'm not convinced she is magically. A quick look at the wiki shows that, (depending on how exactly you interpret the CD text and weather the ramps around the pyramid moved to the ball court for the duel or not), anywhere from a couple to around a dozen uses of Lilly's CD fire wall attack would have cleaned out pretty much the entire red court at CI, (and it's not like Lilly showed any real drained effect from throwing that wall around or is especially well trained). Sure the Red king and the Lords of the Outer night if prepared for an attack, (unlike Lea's little gambit the cheeky madam), would be a real pain to put down. But all that chaff. Nah not even a challenge Lea's powerful magically, but not that powerful.
The other thing with the Lea, (and Eldest Gruff), situation politically speaking is we've only met them post SNAFU within their respective courts with one or more of their queens, so it's not clear if their power comes from them taking up the slack, or if they'd hold that much power normally. For that matter given the different duties to different queens thing we've head for the knight and "area's of responsibility" WoJ's it's not even clear how absolute the power structure is. It's quite possible that the ladies can give the queen's lieutenants orders under certain specific circumstances but are subject to their orders under other. Which would be just the kind of twisted, messed up, mind screwing situation the fae adore.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Carl on February 16, 2015, 04:41:51 AM ---Lea may be second to Mab politically but i'm not convinced she is magically. A quick look at the wiki shows that, (depending on how exactly you interpret the CD text and weather the ramps around the pyramid moved to the ball court for the duel or not), anywhere from a couple to around a dozen uses of Lilly's CD fire wall attack would have cleaned out pretty much the entire red court at CI, (and it's not like Lilly showed any real drained effect from throwing that wall around or is especially well trained). Sure the Red king and the Lords of the Outer night if prepared for an attack, (unlike Lea's little gambit the cheeky madam), would be a real pain to put down. But all that chaff. Nah not even a challenge Lea's powerful magically, but not that powerful.
The other thing with the Lea, (and Eldest Gruff), situation politically speaking is we've only met them post SNAFU within their respective courts with one or more of their queens, so it's not clear if their power comes from them taking up the slack, or if they'd hold that much power normally. For that matter given the different duties to different queens thing we've head for the knight and "area's of responsibility" WoJ's it's not even clear how absolute the power structure is. It's quite possible that the ladies can give the queen's lieutenants orders under certain specific circumstances but are subject to their orders under other. Which would be just the kind of twisted, messed up, mind screwing situation the fae adore.
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I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote. And yes I agree Lily's attacks were very strong but she was also highly unstable/emotional at that point. I submit that Lea who was told to 'indulge herself' was more likely focused on inflicting 'pain' rather than really cutting loose at CI and she had to prepare the way for the Grey Council for the first part of the battle...she also had to contend with several of the Lords of Outer Night on her own which I think shows she is plenty powerful it just didn't make sense for her to go nuclear during that particular battle.
As for power structure if I had to guess Lea and Eldest seem to hold these roles of handmaiden and advisor, roles they have had for a long long time...in that while technically the Lady is next in line to become Queen, Lea for example is answerable only to Mab. Whether that means she controls more political power is debatable but I would guess that since when Mab steps out she is the one who fills in and NOT Maeve even before she became infected, I would think she has some pretty strong cache. Eldest seems more of a check on Lea power wise than politically...but hey maybe Eldest, who seems to be the first choice for ambassador of the Court, has similar political pop and it just has not been shown.
raidem:
--- Quote ---I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote.
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