The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
Carl:
--- Quote ---I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote. And yes I agree Lily's attacks were very strong but she was also highly unstable/emotional at that point. I submit that Lea who was told to 'indulge herself' was more likely focused on inflicting 'pain' rather than really cutting loose at CI and she had to prepare the way for the Grey Council for the first part of the battle...she also had to contend with several of the Lords of Outer Night on her own which I think shows she is plenty powerful it just didn't make sense for her to go nuclear during that particular battle.
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Your not wrong on that first sentence but it never specifies magical power. Political power, (which Lea certainly has as she IS Mab's current second in command per WoJ), would count too.
Also Lea was told to hurt yes. But she was also, (paraphrasing here as i can't remember exact quote), to "help as much as your power allows". Holding back really wouldn't qualify. And based on what we saw with Adrienne the fact that Lea took out a bunch of the Lords of the Outer Night isn't very impressive. Sure they're powerful, but Ramp's seem to work under the same "can't defend against what you don;t see coming" shtick human wizards have. They're not like some Fae who seem to have really solid defenses even if they don;t see it coming.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Carl on February 16, 2015, 04:39:51 PM ---Your not wrong on that first sentence but it never specifies magical power. Political power, (which Lea certainly has as she IS Mab's current second in command per WoJ), would count too.
Also Lea was told to hurt yes. But she was also, (paraphrasing here as i can't remember exact quote), to "help as much as your power allows". Holding back really wouldn't qualify. And based on what we saw with Adrienne the fact that Lea took out a bunch of the Lords of the Outer Night isn't very impressive. Sure they're powerful, but Ramp's seem to work under the same "can't defend against what you don;t see coming" shtick human wizards have. They're not like some Fae who seem to have really solid defenses even if they don;t see it coming.
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I suppose not, thou I always interpreted it as magical...saying someone's power is second only to your own GENERALLY means magical I would think, iirc that part of the conversation did skew towards what Lea knew or could do in comparison to Mab so that's why I've always taken it as magical.
And Lea did help, she was told to indulge herself. But by the same token, wildly throwing around destructive magic when there were other preparations to make like preparing the way for the Grey Council or resisting the will of the Lords it would be a waste of her time and power to just sling around Lily sized firebolts at every foot soldier who crossed her, the whole point is that Lily was having a breakdown and acting unrestrained. Lea really had no cause or reason to do the same, a battle that large is chaotic enough and her task to 'help Harry' makes it not very conducive to letting loose fully.
They, (Lords), may not has 'seemed' like all that much but I feel that's probably more likely due to the fact that they really were not essential to the main point of the battle and so their power wasn't much expanded on. BUT if you take into consideration Odin's analysis that each of them were nearly as powerful as he especially since they were at the center of their power, it remains highly impressive for Lea to have taken on any of them.
Carl:
Erm. I don;t get where your getting the idea that A) lea did much of anything at CI, (she didn't), or that B) such display's of power wouldn't have been useful, (they'd have ended the battle before it began).
Lea's contributions to the whole venture where as follows:
The transformation spell that got them there faster.
The Magical attire for Harry e.t.c.
The pre-prepared transport gem that let her carry Eb and co in unnoticed.
Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night.
Everything else was Harry and allies, and swords.
Conversely drop a lady in there and have her swing a Fire/ice wall like the one Lilly threw in CD right as the RC start attacking all out and one entire side of the stadium gets taken out, a handful of seconds later the other side joins them. Suddenly the handful that made it to the floor aside the only ramps in there are the Red King and the Lords of the Outer Knight. Lets not even get into how much more quickly it could have cleared the way to the pyramid. And that's assuming none of that force was made up of ramps from the ball court.
I also think you totally missed my point about how based on Adrienne Ramps are like Human's. Catch them unprepared and their squishy. Hitting a half a dozen Lords of the Outer Night and knocking them out when their defending from you is major. Doing it when they're totally unprepared and well, Ramirez with Molly veiling could have achieved the same effect.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Carl on February 16, 2015, 11:56:24 PM ---Erm. I don;t get where your getting the idea that A) lea did much of anything at CI, (she didn't), or that B) such display's of power wouldn't have been useful, (they'd have ended the battle before it began).
Lea's contributions to the whole venture where as follows:
The transformation spell that got them there faster.
The Magical attire for Harry e.t.c.
The pre-prepared transport gem that let her carry Eb and co in unnoticed.
Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night.
Everything else was Harry and allies, and swords.
Conversely drop a lady in there and have her swing a Fire/ice wall like the one Lilly threw in CD right as the RC start attacking all out and one entire side of the stadium gets taken out, a handful of seconds later the other side joins them. Suddenly the handful that made it to the floor aside the only ramps in there are the Red King and the Lords of the Outer Knight. Lets not even get into how much more quickly it could have cleared the way to the pyramid. And that's assuming none of that force was made up of ramps from the ball court.
I also think you totally missed my point about how based on Adrienne Ramps are like Human's. Catch them unprepared and their squishy. Hitting a half a dozen Lords of the Outer Night and knocking them out when their defending from you is major. Doing it when they're totally unprepared and well, Ramirez with Molly veiling could have achieved the same effect.
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And I don't much see why in your mind dropping a Lady in there is conducive to anything. So great they throw around a ton of power and pyramids go down. Eb and Harry could have done that too, hell so could Odin...but clearly that would have just made the battle chaos worse and not in an effective way like Molly's one woman rave technique. If it was a simple matter of just brute force being necessary then they would have done it. As it stands they still had to rescue Maggie so a Lady blowing up everything in sight does nothing.
You are also supposing Lea did nothing BECAUSE of the lack of I guess firepower in your mind which is he only thing that constitutes a contribution. I think also because you don't view the Lords of the Outer Night as anything all that tough even though they clearly were...hell if Lea's ONLY contribution was 'Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night' that would have been of great help considering how strong they are...but she also did all those other things.
So fine the ramps are squishy...they had almost the entire army there! You mean to tell me that one Lady just makes them all insignificant? I think in the same way you see me overestimating Lea I think you are doing much the same with Lily or the ladies in general.
namkcas:
So back to the primary topic of this thread, I just finished my re-read of PG. Beyond the standard mysteries, I think I need to understand the Scarecrow a lot more. He has 3 roles in the book:
1 - The first mention is when he attacks Harry et al after Harry has freed himself from Madrigal Raith.
2 - The second mention is the recount by Daniel in the attack on the Carpenter House (must have happened before the attack on Harry - but Harry is occupied at the time).
3 - The third mention is when he is found at the top of Arctus Tor and he battles with Harry/Charity.
Okay so here is the problem. If we assume Mab sends the kidnapping fetches, then why attack Harry? It looks from the outside that the primary purpose of the kidnapping is to draw Harry to Arctus Tor. But if so, why not give Harry a clear path to AT? Delaying tactic? If we assume that Mab does not send the kidnapping fetches, then who do the fetches that attack Harry et al in AT belong to? Why would they not go after one of Mab's enemies? On top of that the Scarecrow declares itself loyal to Mab - not that this is definitive. I think this is the crucible of the answer to what happened at AT.
One other problem with the attack on Harry. Madrigal Raith says he was booked at Splattercon!!! for a year prior to the actual convention. Harry concludes that Glau is attacked first to shut him up. That would make Glau the reason that Madrigal gets booked at Splattercon!!! So, why would Mab want Glau dead? Mab seems to put many obstacles in the way of recovering Molly, but seems approving of his actual recovery.
So, when I come up with a resolution for all this...I will post again.
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