The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Grand Unifying Cosmological Mantle Theory [Series spoilers including MM WoJs]
Serack:
@ Vultur
Thanks for finding that WoJ. I'd already spent so much time and effort, I wasn't going to hunt that particular one down, but it was on my mind, especially after some of the other comments made in responses. I might be writing up another bevy of thoughts in a reply #3 soon. The good news is that Priscellie just informed me that the post character limit has been expanded to 50k characters. So far the 20k character limit is only broached by a few hard core theorist and reference topic generators such as myself. Reply #1 with the WoJ quotes was getting close to bumping against the old character limit, but with this expansion, I should be fine.
@Griff
I really like how you discussed how PCP's (my term) splinter their power to address mortal issues more directly in a tiered approach. It follows closely on my own ideas on how things could be working according to this theorizing, but from a slightly different tack that works well.
Excellent points about the dilution of power. I think part of my future comments in Reply #3 will include references to the Vadderung comments in Changes that support this.
I am dubious about the concept that the dilution is irreversible though. It was said in CD that the beings that run around on All Hallow's Eve can snatch power from each other, which to me implies that there are mechanisms for consolidation of power after distribution.
Also, I think it is likely that the PCPs are so powerful that the "Aeons" are really only representative of a disproportionately small piece of their power, and that in a way, although the original being may be effected by having that power distributed, in another way, because that power is out there effecting things, the power itself is no less significant. I point to the Blackstaff as a poignant example of this type of thing at work. Some aspects of Mother Winter (Who in some ways is the same being as Mother Summer, hence my saying some aspects, also I am sure that when she is wearing different hats, she gets to follow different rules much like Vadderung) are more restricted by the lack of her "walking stick" but at the same time, her power is out there ripping life out of people and stuff and doing all kinds of interesting things that we only have a limited perspective on, all because it is being wielded by a Mortal with Free Will.
--- Quote from: hamiltond on June 24, 2014, 07:43:56 PM ---@Serack
As I'm ready through your, quite frankly, beautiful and elegant theory I came upon a rather interesting parallel between human beings in the DV and quantum level interactions. Specifically the thought experiment of Schrödinger's cat.
In this scenario mortals are the cat existing in a sort of quantum state of indecision and any direct observation from the TRULY "PCPs" would irreparably damage the "experiment". (Predestination / quantum locked reality) Thus in order to affect change it/they must act through smaller and smaller instruments (emanations) AND in a roundabout fashion, thus why so many higher beings act in "mysterious ways" and cannot take direct action, in order to make a desired outcome. Meanwhile we lowly humans existing in a indeterminate state afforded to us by our infinitesimally small "size" that WE perceive as "free will". Am I anywhere near the ballpark?
--- End quote ---
That is a freaking awesome analogy for this whole "GUCMT" concept from the cosmic level down. It is limited in how it explains things from the... lowly indeterminate state human's perspective UP in how they can climb the ladder up in power, but yah from the "PCP" level down it ROCKS.
My hard core quantum physics is limited, but with my limited engineer's understanding, it is like how "Schrodinger's Equation" can mathematically model some of the same things as Heisenberg's Matrix Mechanics representation, but they both get there in such different ways that for some work one is more practical than the other.
Hopefully, we will come up with... EUREKA I've got it!
(click to show/hide)
Edit: By the way, the file name for that image is "faerynman-diagram"
I am way too pleased with myself right now.
Phil Boswell:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 25, 2014, 01:48:36 AM ---Hopefully, we will come up with... EUREKA I've got it!
(click to show/hide)
Edit: By the way, the file name for that image is "faerynman-diagram"
I am way too pleased with myself right now.
--- End quote ---
So now I have this picture of Mab and Tatiana glaring at you identically, saying in chorus "Are you saying my bottom quark looks big in this?" ???
knnn:
I've been out for a while (Darth Real Life), and expect to be busy for a bit longer, but this thread is too interesting not to show it some love (so much so, that I'm writing this a second time after accidentally deleting my post !!@!@#).
This is serious headache-inducing stuff, so I will probably re-read everything again, but for now, a couple of points:
1) Serack pointed this out in the OP, but it bears repeating that while a dipole model is easy to visualize, there is no reason why there may not be more than two ultimate powers. Note that even in the Amberverse, there is arguably a third ultimate power by the end of the first series (though technically two of the powers are on the same side. Kinda).
2) I really liked KG's True Name == IP address theory. Consider how we are told how a mortal's True Name changes slowly by the decisions they make (and see Harry description of calling Elaine in WN), and how it parallels the creation of new universes by Free Will. Basically, the difference between the same individual in two difference universes is the Choices they made. Thus, their Names are ever-so-slightly different, and saying their name in a very particular manner will choose one or the other.
In fact, this may be how MM Harry is summoning his doubles. He basically summons himself but says his Name just a random tiny difference, so the spell summons one of his "nearby" clones.
3) I think Griffyn's point about Uriel giving up his Grace is important. It seems inconceivable to me that an Ultimate Power would risk so much just for a minor win in a single universe. If Michael had failed, and Uriel had Fallen, would he have Fallen across all universes? This seems a little crazy. If, on the other hand Uri himself is a local manifestation, then this is more plausible.
Note that it is very possible that Uri is common to multiple universes, just not *every* universe. Consider worlds in which the Arahamic religions arose in such a way that "Falling" worked with a diffent mechanic (heck, I don't think Judaism/Islam has the notion of a "Fallen Angel" -- this is only really a Christian thing). I don't think Uri Falling in our universe could affect Uri's manifestion in such a reality.
From wikipedia:
--- Quote ---No angel is able to disobey God due to the way God created angels. For this reason, Islam does not teach that Iblīs or Shayṭan (the Devil or Satan) was a fallen angel, rather he was one of the jinn.
--- End quote ---
4) Further down this line of thought, I think we need to consider the entire WG "pantheon" (WG/Uri/Luci/etc.) as manifestation of a single entity -- no different than Summer/Winter.
Actually, here is a nasty cool twist (heheheheh):
We know that Mab has the job of protecting the Outer Gates while Titania protects humanity from Mab. In similar vein, perhaps it is Hell/Luci's job to protect Humanity from XXXXXXX (Nemesis?) while it is Heaven's job to protect humanity's Free Will from Hell? :o :o
5) I really like the Edna/cutting off finger analogy. It fits very nicely with the narrative as I see it. It also works well with the whole Oblivion thing. Basically, the whole war is about changing Humanity so that certain less-savory aspects cannot manifest. It would still be worth exploring the notion of imprisoning such power (Demonreach/Coins). If we hold that "the Fingers just regrow", then it seems hard to explain why putting such powers in a position where they can't affect the world is fundementally different from "Oblivion". It's also interesting to think of this in context of Halloween. On the one hand, it seems that Immortals can only be changed at specfic conjunctions. On the other hand, the power of mortal belief can change the mantle (apparently) continuesly. This may be accessing two different parts of the manifestation...
I'd really recommend reading C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy. One of the ideas behind her world building is a very logical (and coherently described) system where human belief actually shapes how the demons/elemental forces of the world work (it also has similarities to Furycrafting for Alera fans).
6) Another thing I thought I saw mentioned (by Serack?), but the whole "Conservation of History" is interesting. If you go back in time and change something, are you changing the same event in all the universes that spawned since then? If yes, then this possibly explains how it gets harder to change something the farther back/bigger it is. You are not only moving the tiller on your universe, but on countless others, making for a larger multimetawhatever mass to shift.
7) Finally, it seems (WoJ) that all these universes are somehow accessible through the Nevernever. If this means that there is only a single Nevernever -- essentially a vast ocean with isolated islands of "reality" floating around in it. I feel this could be an important point in the grand scheme of things, though I am unsure yet how.
Serack:
--- Quote from: knnn on June 25, 2014, 02:09:59 PM ---I've been out for a while (Darth Real Life), and expect to be busy for a bit longer, but this thread is too interesting not to show it some love (so much so, that I'm writing this a second time after accidentally deleting my post !!@!@#).
This is serious headache-inducing stuff, so I will probably re-read everything again, but for now, a couple of points:
1) Serack pointed this out in the OP, but it bears repeating that while a dipole model is easy to visualize, there is no reason why there may not be more than two ultimate powers. Note that even in the Amberverse, there is arguably a third ultimate power by the end of the first series (though technically two of the powers are on the same side. Kinda).
2) I really liked KG's True Name == IP address theory. Consider how we are told how a mortal's True Name changes slowly by the decisions they make (and see Harry description of calling Elaine in WN), and how it parallels the creation of new universes by Free Will. Basically, the difference between the same individual in two difference universes is the Choices they made. Thus, their Names are ever-so-slightly different, and saying their name in a very particular manner will choose one or the other.
In fact, this may be how MM Harry is summoning his doubles. He basically summons himself but says his Name just a random tiny difference, so the spell summons one of his "nearby" clones.
3) I think Griffyn's point about Uriel giving up his Grace is important. It seems inconceivable to me that an Ultimate Power would risk so much just for a minor win in a single universe. If Michael had failed, and Uriel had Fallen, would he have Fallen across all universes? This seems a little crazy. If, on the other hand Uri himself is a local manifestation, then this is more plausible.
Note that it is very possible that Uri is common to multiple universes, just not *every* universe. Consider worlds in which the Arahamic religions arose in such a way that "Falling" worked with a diffent mechanic (heck, I don't think Judaism/Islam has the notion of a "Fallen Angel" -- this is only really a Christian thing). I don't think Uri Falling in our universe could affect Uri's manifestion in such a reality.
From wikipedia:
--- End quote ---
I'm far from an expert on this, but I thought the doctrines/traditions on fallen angels predated Christianity. Although apparently much of Judaism rejected this stuff as apocryphal.
As far as Uriel's grace is concerned, a new thought I've come up with is that Michael had violated it, he would have probably done so outside of the boundaries of his own home turf reality (I.E. on the other side of the NN veil in Hades). This could have had pretty huge ramifications on just how such a "Fall" would have shaken out.
--- Quote from: knnn on June 25, 2014, 02:09:59 PM ---4) Further down this line of thought, I think we need to consider the entire WG "pantheon" (WG/Uri/Luci/etc.) as manifestation of a single entity -- no different than Summer/Winter.
Actually, here is a nasty cool twist (heheheheh):
We know that Mab has the job of protecting the Outer Gates while Titania protects humanity from Mab. In similar vein, perhaps it is Hell/Luci's job to protect Humanity from XXXXXXX (Nemesis?) while it is Heaven's job to protect humanity's Free Will from Hell? :o :o
--- End quote ---
works great for me
--- Quote from: knnn on June 25, 2014, 02:09:59 PM ---5) I really like the Edna/cutting off finger analogy. It fits very nicely with the narrative as I see it. It also works well with the whole Oblivion thing. Basically, the whole war is about changing Humanity so that certain less-savory aspects cannot manifest. It would still be worth exploring the notion of imprisoning such power (Demonreach/Coins). If we hold that "the Fingers just regrow", then it seems hard to explain why putting such powers in a position where they can't affect the world is fundementally different from "Oblivion". It's also interesting to think of this in context of Halloween. On the one hand, it seems that Immortals can only be changed at specfic conjunctions. On the other hand, the power of mortal belief can change the mantle (apparently) continuesly. This may be accessing two different parts of the manifestation...
I'd really recommend reading C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy. One of the ideas behind her world building is a very logical (and coherently described) system where human belief actually shapes how the demons/elemental forces of the world work (it also has similarities to Furycrafting for Alera fans).
6) Another thing I thought I saw mentioned (by Serack?), but the whole "Conservation of History" is interesting. If you go back in time and change something, are you changing the same event in all the universes that spawned since then? If yes, then this possibly explains how it gets harder to change something the farther back/bigger it is. You are not only moving the tiller on your universe, but on countless others, making for a larger multimetawhatever mass to shift.
--- End quote ---
I like how that works out.
--- Quote from: knnn on June 25, 2014, 02:09:59 PM ---7) Finally, it seems (WoJ) that all these universes are somehow accessible through the Nevernever. If this means that there is only a single Nevernever -- essentially a vast ocean with isolated islands of "reality" floating around in it. I feel this could be an important point in the grand scheme of things, though I am unsure yet how.
--- End quote ---
I'd like to think that Harry's concept of the "Nevernever" is about as nuanced as his early usage of the term "Demon"
Which is to say, a rather ignorant term for "not here"
Rasins:
I wonder how much mantles held by humans get changed due to our free-will. I'd bet that the fact that the SK and WK mantles are so different now is because of knight after knight believing that they were opposed and that leaked into the mantles themselves. It COULD be changed so that one person could hold both, but it would take two very strong willed people or sets of people to make the difference to the Mantle.
I'm thinking that's how the Odin/Clause Mantles are held by one individual. They were never held by folks who believe them to be in contention.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version