McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft

How do you think/plot on a novel's scale?

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Rechan:

--- Quote from: superpsycho ---In a novel, the hero has a personality, a life and a history he has to deal with. If he has a partner, they also have a personality, a life and a history plus they have to deal with each other.
--- End quote ---
And I don't enjoy reading that. I'd rather read a Bond or a Hercule Peroit novel where that does not come up. Because rarely is that plot relevant or at all interesting to me.


--- Quote from: meg_evonne on May 17, 2014, 04:30:01 AM ---Ah, "Become the Onion Lord!" Ha! Love GRR Martin.
--- End quote ---
While I am not going to debate the merits of an author, and bad mouth them because you clearly like them, I will simply say Martin is not the person you want to use with me to make this argument. That is discouraging me, not encouraging me. Because you can't say that every word is necessary and then point to an author who spends pages describing the food. Unless there's poison involved, the food is the least important thing.


--- Quote ---What about Michael's kids? His wife?
--- End quote ---
Michael wasn't in SF? Michael didn't show up til Grave Peril.

And no, I disagree about the restf. Those weren't necessary. If you cut them out, the plot with Sells would have been the same. Murphy existed to serve as information about Sells; she brought Dresden on the case in the first place, and the talisman attack (which she set off) was what drove home that it was Sells.

I define Necessary as "If you remove this, either something cannot be understood or not happen in the plot". And a plot is the actions that leads towards the resolution. By those definitions, I would strike a lot of what you're describing. What you're calling texture and layers and all that other stuff is Unnecessary Extra to me. And if you think you can't get tension and texture in shorts, then you haven't been reading the right ones.

I acknowledge that the things you are describing have a point and a purpose. My objection is how important that point/purpose is and its relevance to the plot. They aren't important to me, that's for sure. And I stand by the fact that even if those points are going to be made, there are more efficient ways of executing them.

But for the purposes of this discussion, I only bring up SF because it had no B Plot aside from Morgan. Layers and texture and all that aren't a B Plot. I acknowledge that SF is part of a series, and therefore some things are relevant further on, but the relevancy is for things later on, not for SF itself; for the sake of argument I am treating it as self-contained.

superpsycho:

--- Quote from: Rechan on May 18, 2014, 12:34:22 PM ---And I don't enjoy reading that. I'd rather read a Bond or a Hercule Peroit novel where that does not come up. Because rarely is that plot relevant or at all interesting to me.
--- End quote ---
But with both characters you mentioned, Bond and Hercule Peroit, their personalities are an integral part of their stories. But its integrated into the story and not as an explanation. Hints here and there to give it flavor. That's what makes a good writer, the ability to weave it in so it doesn't distract from the story but instead gives it texture. Its part of the infamous 'Show' not 'Tell'. Not with verbose tiresome explanations or an endless stream of adverbs and adjectives but hints scattered about like seeds on the wind.

Reread one of your Bond or a Hercule Peroit story's and instead of looking for the story, look for the atmosphere that's painted of characters and scenes. Look for the subtlety of a word here and there at the appropriate moment.

Rechan:

--- Quote from: superpsycho on May 18, 2014, 02:06:08 PM ---But with both characters you mentioned, Bond and Hercule Peroit, their personalities are an integral part of their stories. But its integrated into the story and not as an explanation. Hints here and there to give it flavor. Hints here and there to give it flavor. That's what makes a good writer, the ability to weave it in so it doesn't distract from the story but instead gives it texture.
--- End quote ---
Hints of character interspersed in dialogue and action that provide flavor - that's how its done in short stories, so that's not what we're discussing at all. Showing the history, the day to day life and family of the detective - that's not hints. What is being suggested in this thread is making all those aspects take up chunks of the book.

(Also imo Peroit has next to no personality but that's besides the point.)

Let's use a set of movies as an example: The Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

We don't know who Jack Sparrow is. We learn that Sparrow had a ship, and his crew mutinied. His goal is to get the ship back and to take his revenge. We only learn that he was dumped on an island, and how he got off that island, because he ends up on that island again (it's plot relevant). We learn that he is a notorious pirate. That is all we learn about his background. All we know about his motivations are that he wants his ship, and that he enjoys being a notorious pirate, and that causes him to rub it in the face of the authority. Even in the third movie, we meet his father, but we don't know anything about their relationship, they don't talk about their past, nothing. And yet he is an interesting and fun character; it's what and how he does things that's interesting.

The same thing goes for the Joker. All we know about his past is that he was The Red Hood, he fell in a vat, he is now the Joker. His behavior is unpredictable, and his motivation is purely chaos. And yet he is still interesting and fun; it's what and how he does things that's interesting.

The way that you are talking, not only do we need to know all that other stuff about them because it's important, but we need to spend a good amount of time on them. But we don't.

Basically, look at any Pulp story. It's all about "What is happening right now". And what's happening right now is typically action, or the leadup to action. The story doesn't stay still. The descriptions are minimal, just enough to tell you a sense of something and then it's moving. There's next to no background, characterization is all in action or dialogue, etc.

Griffyn612:
a better place to start would be to ask what you want to write about? do you want to write a detective series, or something else?

meg_evonne:
I've read fascinating police blotters. Once in awhile they scratch an itch. Flat pieces of pancake though and not satisfying for me.

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