The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Order of the blackened Denarius Question.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: shadowlost on May 23, 2014, 01:04:41 PM ---Remember in Death Masks Nic had Harry bound and under water and he still needed him to choose to take the coin. You just can't force someone to take the coin and hope for a viable result. Just remember in he Christian theology the idea of Free Will is more prominent than the ideas of salvation. If someone has the coin it should be because they chose to take it up knowing full well the results and not just some poor schmuck who found a coin out in the park.
--- End quote ---
Not sure that is strictly the case. I think the person needs to Choose to pick up the coin, yes, but I dont think they need to actually understand the full implications of it (any more than when making a Deal with a Sidhe, where you NEVER know the full implications). Basically you have to give Consent, but not necessarily Informed Consent. In the Alley in DM harry was in danger when he tried to pick up the coin, having absolutely no idea what it was.
On the flip side, I dont think you can just sneak into somebodies bedroom and drop it on their face while they sleep, either, because there is no Choice. But a Choice made in Ignorance is still a Choice.
PirateJack:
--- Quote from: shadowlost on May 23, 2014, 01:04:41 PM ---Remember in Death Masks Nic had Harry bound and under water and he still needed him to choose to take the coin. You just can't force someone to take the coin and hope for a viable result. Just remember in he Christian theology the idea of Free Will is more prominent than the ideas of salvation. If someone has the coin it should be because they chose to take it up knowing full well the results and not just some poor schmuck who found a coin out in the park.
--- End quote ---
Well, the deck can be stacked against them there as well. The Shadow's job is to tempt the host into using more and more of its power until they're willing to take up the Coin, making them more likely to fall to temptation. That's not how all of the Denarians work, however. Ursiel drives his hosts insane and subdues their free will instead of working with it like Nicodemus and Lasciel do, likely not even telling Rasmussen about what the Coin meant before having him take it up.
PirateJack:
--- Quote from: Quantus on May 23, 2014, 01:40:03 PM ---Not sure that is strictly the case. I think the person needs to Choose to pick up the coin, yes, but I dont think they need to actually understand the full implications of it (any more than when making a Deal with a Sidhe, where you NEVER know the full implications). Basically you have to give Consent, but not necessarily Informed Consent. In the Alley in DM harry was in danger when he tried to pick up the coin, having absolutely no idea what it was.
On the flip side, I dont think you can just sneak into somebodies bedroom and drop it on their face while they sleep, either, because there is no Choice. But a Choice made in Ignorance is still a Choice.
--- End quote ---
Ninja'd. Agreed though.
shadowlost:
--- Quote from: Quantus on May 23, 2014, 01:40:03 PM ---Not sure that is strictly the case. I think the person needs to Choose to pick up the coin, yes, but I dont think they need to actually understand the full implications of it (any more than when making a Deal with a Sidhe, where you NEVER know the full implications). Basically you have to give Consent, but not necessarily Informed Consent. In the Alley in DM harry was in danger when he tried to pick up the coin, having absolutely no idea what it was.
On the flip side, I dont think you can just sneak into somebodies bedroom and drop it on their face while they sleep, either, because there is no Choice. But a Choice made in Ignorance is still a Choice.
--- End quote ---
That is my point. A person simply not knowing at all wouldn't truly work but if they have a sense of an idea it's the beginning the Fallen need. If you take this coin you'll have the knowledge necessary to cure your dying wife vs Hey look what I found in the park. Someone who does will face the same issues but the struggle the Fallen face with an unknown/unwilling target would be a waste of resources. That might work for Nic's wife who is more of a short term kinda thug. Nic and those like him would choose those who have some idea and still make that choice as honestly as possible.
Taran:
O.k...but Little Harry doesn't have a clue what the coin does. He was just a baby. It seemed pretty important that the baby not touch the coin.
I'm not disagreeing with the Free-will thing. I suppose, the baby is picking up the coin is 'willingly' and 'ignorantly'.
Corrupting innocence seems like something Denarian's like to do.
Edit: Picking up the coin, in this situation feels a lot like Gollum picking up the ring in Lord of the Rings and becoming perverted by it.
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