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Significance in Id Harry's first appearance timing + Possible Uriel sighting!

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Serack:
Edit:  I don't see how discussion of the SG sample chapters can add to this topic, and I'd really like Griff's input, but he won't read it unless we avoid the sample chapters.  So...no SG sample chapter spoilers in this topic please.

So I doubt I'll be able to finish my current reread before the SG release (too much Diablo 3 in my free time) but I'm currently working my way through FM, and this passage got me wondering...


--- Quote from: FM Ch 20 ---"You're unconscious, moron," my double said to me.  We can finally talk to one another."
--- End quote ---

The thing is, this is the second time that day that Harry had been unconscious due to injuries and fatigue.  The first time, the night before, he passed out after getting shot in the shoulder and using magic to cover their escape.  He ended up not waking again until the afternoon of the day Id showed up.

The first possible explanation I can give for “why then?” is the Doylist reason that that’s when Jim needed him to advance certain things in the plot.  However, if we want to ascribe more significance to Id, then we should have better reasons than that, so we have to ask what happened when he fell unconscious this time that is somehow different.

I’ll try to bust out the following excerpts in chronological order, and discuss their relevance before coming to the next one.


--- Quote from: FM Ch. 18 ---“A stuffed animal, man!”  I roared at him.  “Don’t mess with a wizard when he’s wizarding!”  I let out a cackle that threatened to bring the wild hysteria that still lurked inside me back in full force, and banished it with a ferocious scowl.  Poor Rudolph bore the brunt of both expressions,”
--- End quote ---

This is a passage illustrating how Harry is demonstrably a little unhinged in the sequence of events before passing out and spending time with Id.  This particular quote is significant to me because it reminds me a lot of some of his behavior in SmF during the Hobbs fight when he was dealing with the mental whammy Mab laid on him to wipe his memory of fire magic.  It’s also significant because during the Id sequence, Id straight up said, “If you weren’t getting pretty close to crazy, would you be talking to yourself right now?”

Next passage:

--- Quote from: FM Ch. 18 ---Something nagged me about this entire deal, something that was missing, but I’d be damned if I could figure out what it was
--- End quote ---

I think Harry might have thought something similar a couple times running up to falling unconscious, but this one is practically on the same page as the excerpt above.  It implies that Id his “subconscious” is trying to get something through to him right then.


--- Quote from: FM Ch. 19 ---I gripped my blasting rod and started sucking in all the power I could reach, scooping up my recent terror, reaching down into the giggling madness, scraping up all the courage I had left and pouring it into the kettle with everything else.  The power came rushing into me, purity of emotion, complex energies of will, and raw hardheadedness, all combining into a field, an aura of tingling, invisible energy that I could feel enveloping my skin.
[snip]at least a page of intervening stuff[/snip]
Red anger flooded me, rage that I realized with some dim part of my mind was as much a part of the beast and its blood-maddened frenzy as it was of me.
--- End quote ---

I included these two excerpts together even though a page of action intervenes because I wonder if when grabbing for energy, he pulled in some kind of taint from the curse’s aura.  The timing and the “realized with some dim part of my mind” quip make me wonder if it’s tied to Id’s showing up.  Just a thought.

This also ties a bit into the next passage, considering some of what he did with that energy.  First a summary though.  Harry pulls off a moment of awesome blasting the Loup Garou through multiple buildings in a blast of rage and fire.  Then after debating using thaumaturgy to burn the Loup Garou from existence, he instead goes the protection rout and cripples him using the snoopy doll intending to save both MacFinn, and any of his potential victims.  Immediately after casting these two spells he thinks:


--- Quote from: FM Ch. 19 ---“It seemed so empty to me, at that moment.  Meaningless to be a hero.  I felt burned on the inside, as though the fire I had hurled at the creature had scoured away all the gentle feelings that had been there and left a fallow ground behind where only red emotions could flourish.
--- End quote ---

So not only did Harry apparently expose himself to the Loup Garou’s aura while wielding magic, but we know that how you use magic affects who you are.  Interestingly, though, Harry cast two spells with natures almost diametrically opposed immediately before these haunted thoughts.  One was a massive, destructive evocation that wreaked havoc, and the other was a working of thaumaturgy designed to protect both the target and anyone who could have ended up in the target’s path.

What an amazing snapshot of Harry’s inner struggle in using his strength to wreak havoc and protect at the same time.


--- Quote from: FM Ch. 19 ---The stairs were tough, and for a minute I thought I might just lie down and die on the first landing, but a helpful old fire-man lent me a hand down to the first floor, asking me several times if I needed a doctor.  I assured him that I was fine and prayed that he didn’t notice the handcuffs dangling from either wrist.  He didn’t.  He was as wide around the eyes as everyone else, stunned.
--- End quote ---

Woahboy.  SmF makes “helpful old man” cameo set off flags in my head.  Could be nothing, but it happens practically the same page as Harry passed out.  Maybe Uriel was on the scene during these events, and maybe he has some influence on the Id front…


Soooo, in conclusion, if being unconscious due to fatigue and trauma earlier that day wasn’t enough to elicit a visit from Id, then three possible influences that enabled the Id sequence would be (interesting enough, this order is both sequential, and IMO, of probability)

* Harry was getting unhinged by what was going on.
* Harry exposed himself to some bad Loup Garou mojo, and possibly exacerbated it when using his magic to wreak havoc.
* Vague possibility of angelic influence
Edit:  Some great posts below about the possibility that Uriel made a cameo in this sequence.  To sum up, including the above point, there are 3 flags that indicate a possible Uriel Cameo here is reasonable.

* Like the fireman in this scene, "helpful, nigh anonymous old man" seems to be how Uriel would appear when he wanted to be subtle in SmF.
* Griff points out that Uriel's "advice" to Harry in GS, the line from Buckaroo Banzai, "No matter where you go, there you are" was also said by Id Harry in this scene.
* ballplayer72 points out that Carmichael died in this scene and ended up recruited to serve in Uriel's shadow Chicago police corps.  Uriel might have been on the scene to do the recruiting and took a slight detour to help Harry down the stairs.

cornyphil:
And that's the sound of my mind blowing up.

I like it, good solid theory.  We know Harry is walking a little close to the edge of sanity anyway, and we know that his ID is nothing to scoff at.

The Uriel connection is also real interesting.  Makes me wonder how long Uriel has been spooking around Harry.

Griffyn612:
1. Wizard, Interrupted
I think this is the most likely.  Watson would point out that Harry talked to himself in the first book after getting knocked around, and he had a verbal conversation with himself in FM prior to the Id conversation. 

--- Quote ---     “That was stupid, Harry,” I told myself. “You shouldn’t be getting yourself into anything
more complicated than you already have.”
     I was right. But the potential gains made the risk worth it. I could possibly find the killers,
stop them, and additionally find out why the cops had a bug up their collective ass about me.
It might help me to work things out with Murphy. It might even help me get her out of the
trouble she was having.
     “Cheer up, Harry,” I told myself. “You’re just going to go poke around a biker gang’s lair. Ask
them if they happen to have killed some people lately. What could possibly go wrong?”
--- End quote ---

It seems like this is almost a conversation with Harry and Id, since one is reasoned and cautious, while the other is flippant.

As for Holmes, he'd point out the duology themes of FM.  The struggle between MacFinn and his beast, the split faces of the FBI agents, and then the two versions of Harry.  The entire book deals with the idea of two sides to a person, and trying to retain sanity in the face of it.  The others either fail or deny their second half, but Harry is the only one to accept it, and therefore survive.  It would be a good point to bring it into the series, if it was planned for all along.

2. Loup Garou mojo infection
I'm not really down with this one as much. We don't really have any evidence that that type of exposure would do anything, do we?  I mean, Harry absorbed some of the Nightmare's power directly, and it made him angry and gave him more power.  The Loup would probably be even more out of control, making him more primal, like the belt did.  It prompting a dual personality that was calm and rational seems at odds with the affect it should have.

3. Vague Possible Angelic Influence

--- Quote from: Mab through Grim in Small Favor ---Grimalkin mewled from the pew beside me, “That your experience with resisting the shadow of the Fallen One has garnered the respect of the Watchman, my Emissary.”
--- End quote ---
Mab's comment implies that it wasn't until after Harry resisted Lash that Uriel took an interest in him.  But the Fae work in half truths and misdirections, and there's enough leeway there to allow for Uriel to have already been aware, and that event simply elevated his interest.  It's also possible that Uriel went non-linear, and has watched Harry in the past because of something he did in the future.  That type of thinking makes my head hurt.

I don't know that I agree with Uriel being involved that early, but here are two comments that make you think.

--- Quote from: Id Harry in Fool Moon ---My double slipped in front of me again, apparently without needing to cross the intervening space. “It isn’t that simple, Harry. No matter where you go, there you are.”
--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Uriel in Ghost Story ---He pursed his lips and thought about it for a moment. Then he said, “No matter where you go, there you are.”
--- End quote ---

We know Uriel isn't supposed to give out free bits of advice, so he might have plucked that from Harry's memory.  A way of reiterating what he already knew, rather than wasting his seven words.

But its enough to make you wonder.  JB using the same phrase twice in a book is suspicious.  The same phrase used a dozen books apart, while in dreamlike/noncorporeal states, from intelligent characters trying to enlighten Harry?  Damn suspicious.

4. Time Travel Harry
I forget who first came up with this idea.  It may have been me, or it may have been someone else.  But very briefly, before Ghost Story, an idea was bandied about that Harry's ghostly self would face a Christmas Carol-like journey, and that Lash would be his guide, since she was non-linear.  Ghost Harry would then use that trip to talk to himself in the past, during the events of FM, to influence the outcome, but also avoid breaking any laws.  The Id's appearance in the coat, his insight into Harry's feelings about Murphy, his knowledge about Elaine, warning about Parker right before he attacked, and hinting at Harry missing something about those involved, all implied either insight (like Id said) or foreknowledge.  The idea was even more potent, when Id Harry made the comment about understanding all too well about wanting to change the past.

Now that the Ghost Story possibility is out, the idea is mostly obsolete.  It could still be some form of mental time travel, but it seems less likely now.  The issue with the theory at the time was that Lash would have had to have taken him back to a time prior to their joining, which she may not have had access to.

5. You know, that makes me wonderrRRR HOLY CRAP I THINK YOU JUST INSPIRED A NEW PARASITE THEORY.
(click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: Id Harry from Dead Beat ---     “If you go to your death rather than do everything you might to prevent what is
happening, you are merely committing suicide and trying to make yourself feel better about it.
That is the act of a coward. It is beneath contempt.”
--- End quote ---
But that's what Harry did, isn't it?  Where was Id when Harry made his decision in Changes?  We haven't seen him since Dead Beat, if I'm not mistaken.  What if that decision pissed off Id?  What if he's still around, and Harry has a split personality?  What if its been slowly growing since even before then, explaining some of the headaches over the years, as two minds struggled in one head?
 
And then Id gets pissed at Harry for the decision in Changes.  He breaks off from Harry of his own accord, similar to what Bob did with his Evil self.  Id would be the type to figure out the likely outcome of Harry's previous order, and might have already suspected such a thing happened.  So he did the same. 

After Harry's death, Id remained, merely a splinter of Harry's soul and power.  It wasn't enough to live on its own, but it was capable of keeping the blood flowing while Mab and Demonreach helped.  With Harry back alive, Id is trying to take over, convinced Harry isn't capable or worthy of his power. 

And that's why Molly needs to help, because she can get in Harry's head and help him reunite.  If they don't, neither might be able to survive on their own.

Oh man, can you imagine if Id, which Harry called Alterna-Harry, got control and ran about for a bit?  I don't think he'd be evil, but he'd be different.  And with the darker power of the Winter Knight mantle... wow.  No need to go to a MIRROR MIRROR universe to see what could have happened.

Mira:

--- Quote from: Serack on April 23, 2014, 01:43:30 PM ---Edit:  I don't see how discussion of the SG sample chapters can add to this topic, and I'd really like Griff's input, but he won't read it unless we avoid the sample chapters.  So...no SG sample chapter spoilers in this topic please.

So I doubt I'll be able to finish my current reread before the SG release (too much Diablo 3 in my free time) but I'm currently working my way through FM, and this passage got me wondering...

The thing is, this is the second time that day that Harry had been unconscious due to injuries and fatigue.  The first time, the night before, he passed out after getting shot in the shoulder and using magic to cover their escape.  He ended up not waking again until the afternoon of the day Id showed up.

The first possible explanation I can give for “why then?” is the Doylist reason that that’s when Jim needed him to advance certain things in the plot.  However, if we want to ascribe more significance to Id, then we should have better reasons than that, so we have to ask what happened when he fell unconscious this time that is somehow different.

I’ll try to bust out the following excerpts in chronological order, and discuss their relevance before coming to the next one.

This is a passage illustrating how Harry is demonstrably a little unhinged in the sequence of events before passing out and spending time with Id.  This particular quote is significant to me because it reminds me a lot of some of his behavior in SmF during the Hobbs fight when he was dealing with the mental whammy Mab laid on him to wipe his memory of fire magic.  It’s also significant because during the Id sequence, Id straight up said, “If you weren’t getting pretty close to crazy, would you be talking to yourself right now?”

Next passage:
I think Harry might have thought something similar a couple times running up to falling unconscious, but this one is practically on the same page as the excerpt above.  It implies that Id his “subconscious” is trying to get something through to him right then.

I included these two excerpts together even though a page of action intervenes because I wonder if when grabbing for energy, he pulled in some kind of taint from the curse’s aura.  The timing and the “realized with some dim part of my mind” quip make me wonder if it’s tied to Id’s showing up.  Just a thought.

This also ties a bit into the next passage, considering some of what he did with that energy.  First a summary though.  Harry pulls off a moment of awesome blasting the Loup Garou through multiple buildings in a blast of rage and fire.  Then after debating using thaumaturgy to burn the Loup Garou from existence, he instead goes the protection rout and cripples him using the snoopy doll intending to save both MacFinn, and any of his potential victims.  Immediately after casting these two spells he thinks:

So not only did Harry apparently expose himself to the Loup Garou’s aura while wielding magic, but we know that how you use magic affects who you are.  Interestingly, though, Harry cast two spells with natures almost diametrically opposed immediately before these haunted thoughts.  One was a massive, destructive evocation that wreaked havoc, and the other was a working of thaumaturgy designed to protect both the target and anyone who could have ended up in the target’s path.

What an amazing snapshot of Harry’s inner struggle in using his strength to wreak havoc and protect at the same time.

Woahboy.  SmF makes “helpful old man” cameo set off flags in my head.  Could be nothing, but it happens practically the same page as Harry passed out.  Maybe Uriel was on the scene during these events, and maybe he has some influence on the Id front…


Soooo, in conclusion, if being unconscious due to fatigue and trauma earlier that day wasn’t enough to elicit a visit from Id, then three possible influences that enabled the Id sequence would be (interesting enough, this order is both sequential, and IMO, of probability)

* Harry was getting unhinged by what was going on.
* Harry exposed himself to some bad Loup Garou mojo, and possibly exacerbated it when using his magic to wreak havoc.
* Vague possibility of angelic influence
--- End quote ---
  I see significance as it relates to the Winter Knight's mantle. However since Harry is more aware than he was back in Dead Beat when Lasciel was holding long conversation with it in hopes of influencing Harry though the back door so to speak.  Harry's Id is important, controlled a lot of his strength and power come from it, but he has to control it least he become a thug.  Where as Harry could debate his Id and Lasciel, there is no argument with the mantle.  The mantle thrives in Harry's Id, somewhere he has to find the strength and will to control it and thus himself.

the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
For completeness' sake, there's another version of the Time-Travel Harry theory, which is that time-travelling future Harry is in the NN and touching present-day Harry's dreams using the same mechanism as the Nightmare does in GP.

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