The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
KurtinStGeorge:
I'm late to commenting on the OP, but I want to thank Neuro for laying out this thesis and its relevant details. However, there are some questions that I have and a few comments I would like to make, but some of the comments are so minor I may just do them in a separate post.
If I understand the OP correctly the proposed plan by Maggie and Lord Raith was to create a Startborn with the ability to oppose the Outsiders; and possibly unnamed others, for the benefit of all the major powers on Earth, be they mortal human wizards or vampires, and the supernatural powers of the Nevernever as well. However, while Margaret LeFay and Lord Raith openly proposed this plan; possibly with the support of Justin DuMorne, the truly major supernatural powers; represented by Uriel, Odin and Mab, have been working in a covert fashion, and generally speaking their efforts have been indirectly linked to one another, rather than a formal alliance with distinct roles spelled out by an agreed upon treaty. Because the truly great powers have foresight, they don't really need to talk to each other very often. They know where their individual strengths lay and what their counterparts are likely to do as well.
(Boy is Harry going to be pissed if he finds out he is something of a group science experiment; though Lash kind of hinted to him that this might be the case in their final discussion in the Raith Deeps.)
I'm not sure why Maggie and Lord Raith would have to announced their plan or why they needed the agreement of the Red Court or Ebenezer McCoy. What part were these two parties supposed to have played in creating a Starborn? However, I think it is easy to see why different factions would have wanted to get control of Harry or kill him.
If one party didn't really understand or believe the threat the Outsiders represented, then it might seem like a good idea to kill a Starborn wizard before he becomes the White Council's newest super weapon. The reverse applies if the WC doesn't believe or fully understand the threat, and instead see a Starborn wizard as a super weapon who has been created as a tool of other dangerous supernatural powers.
I can understand why Lord Raith would want to create a Starborn wizard, especially one he could control. He might have been protected by Outsider magic or some variant of it, and he did use human summoners to call up HWWB, but he could have thought that having a Starborn working for House Raith was a way to balance the scales between himself and the Outsiders. In this way LR couldn't merely become an Outsider puppet, he could be their equal.
If the OP is correct, or at least close to being correct, I would hypothesize that Margaret LeFay figured out how to create a Starborn child without assistance from the WC (Ebenezer), the WCV or the RC. This would explain why LR didn't try to track down Harry as a child. He didn't realize how important he was, and not just important to the curse which Margaret placed on LR.
I want to comment on Lea, Marcone and Nicodemus, but my observations aren't relevant to major idea of the OP.
KurtinStGeorge:
Lea - While reading the original OP I realized we have never been given a description of how Lea first introduced herself to Harry. It must have occurred shortly after the scene we were given in Ghost Story when Harry first met and defeated HWWB. That has got to be a great scene. I really want to read Harry's reaction when Lea tells him she is his Fairy Godmother. His psychotically murderous Fairy Godmother, but his Fairy Godmother just the same. I believe it is possible that Lea had made deals with more than just Margaret. I won't be surprised if we discover she made a deal with Justin DuMorne as well as Maggie, without ever telling either of them. What I don't understand is what she would have gotten from Mab by acting as her proxy, if it turns out Mab has been following Harry's progress from the very beginning. Though I suppose Mab might have given Lea the chance that she would gain strength and influence from controlling the Starborn wizard herself, though if that is correct I would suspect that Mab would have wanted a Starborn who could resist Lea's influence. Mab told Harry that she watched him frustrate his Godmother in the Nevernever in GP. That suggests Mab was watching Harry's progress and Lea was a kind of test that Harry had to pass in order to prove that he might eventually be worthy of being her Knight.
Nicodemus - I don't think he believes that he might be recognized as a Saint because his actions eventually result in carrying out the wishes of the White God. I suspect his beliefs are much darker than that and I'm hoping that aside from the snappy banter we expect when Harry and Nic cross verbal swords, Nicodemus will explain his personal philosophy (for lack of a better term) in more detail in the upcoming book.
Marcone - I don't believe that when Marcone shared a soulgaze with Harry that it was his introduction to the supernatural world. However, it was probably proof that everything he had heard about the supernatural world was real. I don't have Storm Front in front of me, but I remember Marcone said to Harry, "Mr Dresden, they say your the real Magus," (Not the exact quote, but very close.) which tells us that Marcone did his homework before he had that conversation with Harry. There was also the scene much later in the story when Harry confronted Marcone; and the thug who was working for Victor Sells, at the Varsity Club. Marcone told Harry that the few people who had been caught working for the Three-Eye distributor (Victor Sells) could only tell him them that he (Sells) appeared only in shadows. Sells was obviously using the same spell he used when he confronted Harry outside his apartment in the thunder storm, while Harry and Susan were trying to escape the toad demon. Hearing about an enemy who appeared as a disincorporate shadow was Marcone's first clue that the supernatural world was real.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on March 25, 2014, 12:46:37 AM ---If I understand the OP correctly the proposed plan by Maggie and Lord Raith was to create a Startborn with the ability to oppose the Outsiders; and possibly unnamed others, for the benefit of all the major powers on Earth, be they mortal human wizards or vampires, and the supernatural powers of the Nevernever as well.
--- End quote ---
Yes. If the world is eaten by Cthulhu everybody loses.
--- Quote ---However, while Margaret LeFay and Lord Raith openly proposed this plan; possibly with the support of Justin DuMorne, the truly major supernatural powers; represented by Uriel, Odin and Mab, have been working in a covert fashion, and generally speaking their efforts have been indirectly linked to one another, rather than a formal alliance with distinct roles spelled out by an agreed upon treaty.
--- End quote ---
This particular theory is agnostic on whether Uriel and Mab and Odin work together overtly or just have foresight/intellectus enough to plan based on what each other will do. To my mind it is equally workable in either case; I have a personal preference for the notion that they overtly work together but not based ion anything strong enough to argue for it.
--- Quote ---I'm not sure why Maggie and Lord Raith would have to announced their plan or why they needed the agreement of the Red Court or Ebenezer McCoy. What part were these two parties supposed to have played in creating a Starborn?
--- End quote ---
I'm not arguing for them having a direct role, more for this being a plan that would, had all gone smoothly, have protected them all from a major threat. At very least, DV supernaturals being what they are, this could have been spun as leaving the Red Court, White Council, et potential alii indebted to Maggie and Lord R, if you want a less than altruistic motivation here,
--- Quote ---I can understand why Lord Raith would want to create a Starborn wizard, especially one he could control. He might have been protected by Outsider magic or some variant of it, and he did use human summoners to call up HWWB, but he could have thought that having a Starborn working for House Raith was a way to balance the scales between himself and the Outsiders. In this way LR couldn't merely become an Outsider puppet, he could be their equal.
--- End quote ---
I really want to know when and how Lord R acquired his protection.
--- Quote ---If the OP is correct, or at least close to being correct, I would hypothesize that Margaret LeFay figured out how to create a Starborn child without assistance from the WC (Ebenezer), the WCV or the RC. This would explain why LR didn't try to track down Harry as a child. He didn't realize how important he was, and not just important to the curse which Margaret placed on LR.
--- End quote ---
Lord R seems not to have known about Harry being Maggie's child prior to overhearing Thomas and Harry's talk around their soulgaze in BR. I can see that either as Lord R not knowing Maggie had given birth (strikes me as unlikely) or alternatively that he's not kept in the loop on keeping track of Harry afterwards (which would fit with my suspicion that Justin's attempt to enthrall Harry is Justin going rogue and not part of anyone else's plan.)
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on March 25, 2014, 01:34:14 AM ---Lea - While reading the original OP I realized we have never been given a description of how Lea first introduced herself to Harry. It must have occurred shortly after the scene we were given in Ghost Story when Harry first met and defeated HWWB. That has got to be a great scene. I really want to read Harry's reaction when Lea tells him she is his Fairy Godmother. His psychotically murderous Fairy Godmother, but his Fairy Godmother just the same. I believe it is possible that Lea had made deals with more than just Margaret. I won't be surprised if we discover she made a deal with Justin DuMorne as well as Maggie, without ever telling either of them. What I don't understand is what she would have gotten from Mab by acting as her proxy, if it turns out Mab has been following Harry's progress from the very beginning.
--- End quote ---
The impression I got from SK is that having a hold over Harry is itself an asset to Lea, and a matter of prestige. Once she gets hold of the athame as well, the combined worth of those is unbalancing enough that Mab has to take personal charge of Harry's debt.
--- Quote ---Marcone - I don't believe that when Marcone shared a soulgaze with Harry that it was his introduction to the supernatural world. However, it was probably proof that everything he had heard about the supernatural world was real. I don't have Storm Front in front of me, but I remember Marcone said to Harry, "Mr Dresden, they say your the real Magus," (Not the exact quote, but very close.) which tells us that Marcone did his homework before he had that conversation with Harry.
--- End quote ---
I should check that scene again, because I do not recall anything to unambiguously say Marcone knows the supernatural is real, rather than merely being aware of Harry's reputation, at that point.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on March 26, 2014, 05:16:07 PM ---I should check that scene again, because I do not recall anything to unambiguously say Marcone knows the supernatural is real, rather than merely being aware of Harry's reputation, at that point.
--- End quote ---
Well, given that he was aware enough to know of and intend a Soulgaze indicated that at the very least he has done his homework. Said homework, however, could have been as simple as a visit to the back room of Bock Ordered Books. Though the line about "I choose which 'they' I listen to very carefully" makes me think he had a more specific informant on the matter. Lacking other evidence, I just assumed that Vadderung had already made some level of contact by that point. Marcone had, after all, been operating in the city and competing with various supernatural interests for years by that point. If the cops had been aware of the supernatural for generations, he probably was as well to some degree.
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