Author Topic: What would a power granting ritual look like  (Read 5952 times)

Offline potestas

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What would a power granting ritual look like
« on: January 14, 2014, 12:22:51 AM »
What would such thaumaturgical (SP) effect look like if you were to grant yourself or another inhuman strength or claws? You would want it to last at least a day, if its permanent its going to cost, but if its only for a day. How much for the ability the time for it to last that sort of thing. Granted why give yourself strength or claw when you can make it rain fire, but you never know, Raith was immune to direct magic, enhanced punching ability would have certainly made things easier for harry that day. Any ideas or has some already been posted?

Offline Taran

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 01:00:14 AM »
A discussion happened recently here:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40144.msg1972112.html#msg1972112

Starting on that post and going for a page or so.

Here is what some people might say:
Duration: 5 shifts
        - To go from 1 scene(15 minutes) to 1 day
Transforming: 9 shifts
        - Enough shifts to take a person out +1 (so a stress track of 4 would be 5 shifts + 4 shifts in the event of a perfect +4 defense roll)
Cost of Powers:  3-4/refresh attained
        - I'm not sure about this.  I think it's enough shifts to create a maneuver (3 shifts) per power granted. refresh cost of the power

So getting Inhuman strength for 1 day would be 17 shifts.  You could tag it to gain access to the power for free once for a scene.  You'd have to spend 2 fp's (1 fp/refresh) to use it for any other scenes that same day.

I'm unclear as to whether multiple powers with the same ritual would only be an additional 3 for each gained power, or if you'd need to also add duration for each power.(3 for the power +5 for duration=12 shifts for each power granted).

Edit: Corrected a broad-sweeping generalization.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 11:35:23 PM by Taran »

Offline potestas

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2014, 01:43:00 AM »
why should you need to spend fp if the power is temporary and can be dispelled. Kind of hefty cost then

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2014, 02:04:40 AM »
I think the consensus is...

Pretty sure there's no consensus. My method would differ greatly from the one you propose there.

why should you need to spend fp if the power is temporary and can be dispelled.

Because that's the rules. Says so in the book.

The good news is, you might be able to use aspect tags as Fate Points. Or you might not be able to. Opinions vary.

Offline Braincandy

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 02:25:30 AM »
Because that's the rules. Says so in the book.

Where does it say that?

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 02:29:57 AM »
Sidebar of page 92 and note in the margin of page 283.

Offline potestas

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 02:30:39 AM »
I need a way to balance it. Some of what  I read suggests pieces of the power. Each power actually provides several concrete benefits. I f I need to hit someone hard maybe that would be the aspect of the power the ritual provides for a time. If I need to move boulders for a time a different ritual. Much more limited similar costs and it really doesn't matter if you have a the ability to lift a large boulder for a month since when is the next time your going to need that. ( can you imagine Harrys door sign, no parties, no love potions, oh you have a boulder that needs to be moved...right on that)

The reason I am concerned is there are great many nasty's that simply shrug off magic. And unless I want everyone to run around with soul fire or any of the homegrown abilities Ive seen that automatically bypass weaknesses A wizard has to have a way around it with magic as that is his bread and butter. Thus ritual that grant powers.

Offline potestas

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 02:33:40 AM »
Sidebar of page 92 and note in the margin of page 283.

the sidebar is for entities granting power, not rituals.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2014, 02:44:52 AM »
The margin note refers you to the sidebar when discussing power-granting rituals.

A wizard has to have a way around it with magic as that is his bread and butter.

Not so. It's okay for wizards to have weaknesses.

Though, it bears mentioning that indirect magic attacks like launching solid objects at people might bypass some forms of magic immunity. And even if a baddie is totally immune to all forms of magic, a wizard can maneuver. Or just pick up a gun.

Offline Taran

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2014, 03:15:22 AM »
Pretty sure there's no consensus. My method would differ greatly from the one you propose there.

Well, from a lot of what people have posted recently, and from a lot of what I've read on these boards in general, this was the general consensus that I got. I should probably re-word my previous statement.

Buuuut...that said, what would your method be, out of curiosity.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 03:44:48 AM »
I'd probably just pick a number that seemed reasonable based on the circumstances. Not all Powers of a given Refresh cost would have the same complexity.

I'd think about how many shifts it would take to get a roughly-equal effect with a different method, and use that as a guide.

So far I haven't seen any formula that makes me want to change that policy.

Offline potestas

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 03:53:56 AM »
The margin note refers you to the sidebar when discussing power-granting rituals.

Not so. It's okay for wizards to have weaknesses.

Though, it bears mentioning that indirect magic attacks like launching solid objects at people might bypass some forms of magic immunity. And even if a baddie is totally immune to all forms of magic, a wizard can maneuver. Or just pick up a gun.

yes I've seen it done that way too, my toon has used earth magic to pull steel rebar's from the concrete and direct them into fey. I thought that was a nice touch.

Offline Haru

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 05:19:25 AM »
My way would basically look like what Taran wrote, only without the added duration. I would just focus on the time it is actually used, which is the duration of 1 scene, which is (roughly) 15 minutes.
I would, however require you to either spend fate points or spend tags in the form of valuable aspects. Want flight? Get an ingredient for your ritual that will reasonably grant you the ability to fly. The feather of a gryphon, the heart of a wind elemental, that kind of thing. It should be hard. Hard enough to make other options more viable. In my opinion, you either take powers you want permanently, or you have to work for them. Taking new powers any other scene, just because you have thaumaturgy is an abuse of the temporary powers rule, I feel. If you want to be able to switch out powers, make that part of your concept and build, don't expect a free meal.

I need a way to balance it. Some of what  I read suggests pieces of the power. Each power actually provides several concrete benefits. I f I need to hit someone hard maybe that would be the aspect of the power the ritual provides for a time. If I need to move boulders for a time a different ritual. Much more limited similar costs and it really doesn't matter if you have a the ability to lift a large boulder for a month since when is the next time your going to need that. ( can you imagine Harrys door sign, no parties, no love potions, oh you have a boulder that needs to be moved...right on that)
That's sort of what enchanted items or better yet potions are supposed to do. You can create enchanted items with thaumaturgy rituals stored in them, supposed to act as skill replacement rolls. That can be pretty much any skill and any application you like, as long as you choose them when you make the enchanted item. You could also create an enchanted item that grants you a "supercharged muscles" aspect (or more, if you can put enough power into it), that you can tag on a subsequent fists roll. It will basically give you the same (or a better) effect than strength powers would give you, and it is well within the realms of what is already possible.

If you have something that you'll rarely use, but that you still need, keep some potion slots open. Potions are basically one-use enchanted items, and if you keep potion slots open, you can later declare them with a successful Lore roll.

Quote
The reason I am concerned is there are great many nasty's that simply shrug off magic. And unless I want everyone to run around with soul fire or any of the homegrown abilities Ive seen that automatically bypass weaknesses A wizard has to have a way around it with magic as that is his bread and butter. Thus ritual that grant powers.
Well, any wizard can still use mortal gear, especially weapons. Harry does so on a regular basis. And there is nothing wrong with magic NOT being the solution. Don't get me wrong, if you want to buff up on a strength power to defeat a powerful nasty that is immune to magic, that's totally fine. I'm just saying that it is going to be a long way around to gather ingredients and such. And since you are usually not alone in the group, another character might have a better way of dealing with the problem, so it would be his time to shine. I know, if you are playing a wizard, you want to solve everything with magic. Hammer, nail and all that. But that's not the only way to go.
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Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 12:20:54 PM »
the sidebar is for entities granting power, not rituals.

And the sidebar on 283 clarifies how to add powers and refers back to the temporary powers rule on 92. 

This is in the RAW.  It doesn't set a shift cost for how to do it, but it specifically says that this is how it works.  Magic doesn't let you get free powers.  It lets you do various effects and can be a justification for temporary powers.

But I think the crux of the issue here is this:  Remember that DFRPG is a group game.  You character may not always have the answer, but that's so that another character can.  Monsters with magic immunity exist to make wizards use a different solution other than magic, or let other characters shine in the fight.

Offline Cadd

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Re: What would a power granting ritual look like
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 02:59:06 PM »
the sidebar is for entities granting power, not rituals.
While the argument has been thoroughly made that those rules apply anyway, I'd actually contest that the sidebar is general as written.

Quote from: YS92
In rare circumstances, it might be appropriate
for a character to temporarily take on
supernatural powers. Usually, this happens
when a supernatural entity imbues someone
with power for a short time in order to
take on a threat or fulfill some part of its
agendas.
...
Regardless of the circumstances, temporary
powers should be dealt with in a
similar fashion to mid-session upgrades,
but with less cost—the player has to spend
fate points equal to the power’s usual cost,
but not permanent refresh.
My bolding for emphasis. These rules are simply the rules for taking on temporary powers, no matter the source. The most common source would be when powerful "benefactors" imbues a character temporarily, but that's only one possibility.