The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Serack on November 29, 2013, 09:02:50 PM ---As to the distinction you make in (B) necromancy certainly seems to be a distinct subset of the "Thalt not X vs a mortal" parts of the 7 Laws. I do think that the set of tools I have crafted in this topic to analyze the effects of Black Magic manage to handle the differences nicely though, and I have already commented how the text Count was so good to quote for us seems to support that approach nicely.
Of course you already established that you dismiss that quote's pertinence.
--- End quote ---
I didn't mean my post here to read hostile or dismissive of your effort and I apologise if it came across that way.
Reading those two quotes again, though, the one from chapter 29 of DB seems to admit of more than one possible interpretation, and to my mind, "I've seen the fruits of that kind of path" followed by a bunch of examples of murder, suffering and misery skews towards Harry objecting to paths involving murder, suffering and misery rather than using necromancy specifically - I'd cite the main plot of FM as an example of a road paved in the corpses of innocents to what the people involved believed was a greater good, which Harry has previously encountered, that had nothing to do with necromancy. On the other hand, I am at a loss for a way of reading "It had been used to preserve life, just as the magic I knew could be used either to protect or to destroy." compatible with regarding necromancy as an inherently corruptive force.
Tami Seven:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 02, 2013, 04:47:55 PM ---I didn't mean my post here to read hostile or dismissive of your effort and I apologise if it came across that way.
Reading those two quotes again, though, the one from chapter 29 of DB seems to admit of more than one possible interpretation, and to my mind, "I've seen the fruits of that kind of path" followed by a bunch of examples of murder, suffering and misery skews towards Harry objecting to paths involving murder, suffering and misery rather than using necromancy specifically - I'd cite the main plot of FM as an example of a road paved in the corpses of innocents to what the people involved believed was a greater good, which Harry has previously encountered, that had nothing to do with necromancy. On the other hand, I am at a loss for a way of reading "It had been used to preserve life, just as the magic I knew could be used either to protect or to destroy." compatible with regarding necromancy as an inherently corruptive force.
--- End quote ---
All magic has the potential to corrupt, though some (like Necromancy) more so than others. How it is used, and by whom is just as important as the type of magic. However, certain magic (again like Necromancy), feeds into a need to kill people. Which is why it is far more corrupting than most other magic.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Tami Seven on December 02, 2013, 04:54:39 PM ---All magic has the potential to corrupt, though some (like Necromancy) more so than others. How it is used, and by whom is just as important as the type of magic. However, certain magic (again like Necromancy), feeds into a need to kill people. Which is why it is far more corrupting than most other magic.
--- End quote ---
Both of those characterisations of necromancy as a force. as opposed to necromancy used for crimes against humans are ones I am seeing no support for in the text.
Serack:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 02, 2013, 04:47:55 PM ---I didn't mean my post here to read hostile or dismissive of your effort and I apologise if it came across that way.
--- End quote ---
Thanks neuro. I tend to get a bit defensive when wrangling with you, and your saying that helps a lot. (I actually dialed the conclusion of my response way back from what I had originally written up)
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 02, 2013, 04:47:55 PM ---Reading those two quotes again, though, the one from chapter 29 of DB seems to admit of more than one possible interpretation, and to my mind, "I've seen the fruits of that kind of path" followed by a bunch of examples of murder, suffering and misery skews towards Harry objecting to paths involving murder, suffering and misery rather than using necromancy specifically - I'd cite the main plot of FM as an example of a road paved in the corpses of innocents to what the people involved believed was a greater good, which Harry has previously encountered, that had nothing to do with necromancy. On the other hand, I am at a loss for a way of reading "It had been used to preserve life, just as the magic I knew could be used either to protect or to destroy." compatible with regarding necromancy as an inherently corruptive force.
--- End quote ---
See, and I read it as the murder suffering and misery are the fruits, and necromancy* is the tree/path.
*Or maybe goals like "Or maybe I'm just not quite arrogant enough to start rearranging the universe on the assumption that I know better than God how long life should last."
Harry is having to make a bit of a snap judgement under pressure here. I'm actually taking his assesment in a different direction in saying that it isn't necessarily necromancy that is the problem but necromancy with respect to human souls/specters/zombies that matters or at least when they are forced to do things it seems... The line between necromancy and "ectomancy" is blurry for me, and we even saw Harry play around with spirits in GP.
On a side note, I have pretty much always had the Doylist opinion that the "you need to be surrounded by necromantic energy to approach the darkhallow vortex" was a bit of hand waving to give Jim an excuse to have Harry raise Sue. But it helps to show how necromancy vs a non human might not have the same significance.
And just to keep from having to go back to the Count's post with the quote, here it is again (spoilered to condense it)
(click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: Dead Beat, Chapter 29 ---Maybe that wasn't the point. Maybe this was one of those things in which the effort meant more than the outcome. I mean, if there was a chance, even a tiny, teeny chance that Kumori was right, and that the world could be so radically changed, wouldn't I be obliged to try? Even if I never reached the goal, never finished the quest, wouldn't the attempt to vanquish death itself be a worthy pursuit?
Wow.
This question was a big one. Way bigger than me.
I shook my head and told Kumori, "I don't know about that. What I know is that I've seen the fruits of that kind of path. I saw Cowl try to murder me when I got in his way. I've seen what Grevane and the Corpsetaker have done. I've heard about the suffering and misery Kemmler caused—and is still causing today, thanks to his stupid book.
"I don't know about something as big as trying to murder death. But I know that you can tell a tree from what kind of fruit falls off it. And the necromancy tree doesn't drop anything that isn't rotten." "Ours is a calling," Kumori said, her voice flat. "A noble road."
"I might be willing to believe you if so much of that road wasn't paved in the corpses of innocents." I saw her head shake slowly beneath the hood. "You sound like them. The Council. You do not understand."
"Or maybe I'm just not quite arrogant enough to start rearranging the universe on the assumption that I know better than God how long life should last. And there's a downside to what you're saying, too. How about trying to topple the regime of an immortal Napoleon, or Attila, or Chairman Mao? You could as easily preserve the monsters as the intellectual all-stars. It can be horribly abused, and that makes it dangerous."
I faced her down for a long and silent second. Then she let out a sigh and said, "I think we have exhausted the possibilities of this conversation."
--- End quote ---
hassman:
I believe that necromancy, death magic and mind magic all have the common element of directly violating another soul (or in the case of necromancy, remnants thereof) I think mortals cannot handle this. Either you leave bits behind or bits stick to you.
Again, I distinguish death magic (Eb waved the staff and people died as life left them) vs. killing with magic.
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