The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: 123456789blaaa on November 28, 2013, 08:03:47 AM ---So it's more like he finds that things may be greyer than he thought rather than "Necromancy=not inherently evil".
--- End quote ---
The line in your first quote "if that dark power could be employed in whatever fashion its wielder chose, that made it no different from my own" strikes me as fairly definitive on that point.
--- Quote ---Now I know you probably think Harry is mistaken and close-minded here but I'd say that Necromancy=evil is what Jim is going for.
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Not at all. It seems fairly obvious to me that what Jim is going for there is that plans that involve killing innocents are evil, and then that following your own judgement regardless of the consequences is evil. (This latter from Harry I do take as irony.) Nothing in there specifiies that it's the mechanism you use to do those evil things that makes them bad; Harry would be just as disapproving of a mundane dictator with utopian fantasies that involved killing lots of innocent people, I reckon.
Tami Seven:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 28, 2013, 03:28:48 PM ---The line in your first quote "if that dark power could be employed in whatever fashion its wielder chose, that made it no different from my own" strikes me as fairly definitive on that point.
Not at all. It seems fairly obvious to me that what Jim is going for there is that plans that involve killing innocents are evil, and then that following your own judgement regardless of the consequences is evil. (This latter from Harry I do take as irony.) Nothing in there specifiies that it's the mechanism you use to do those evil things that makes them bad; Harry would be just as disapproving of a mundane dictator with utopian fantasies that involved killing lots of innocent people, I reckon.
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Non-evil, extenuating circumstances can exist to justify 'breaking' each of the laws. In theory. But just because you are convinced that you have to kill Hitler with magic to save millions of lives, doesn't mean you won't be tainted by it, doesn't mean that it's not "Black Magic".
Kumori was idealistic in her desire to use Necromancy to 'end death'. Harry pointed out to her, rightly so, that there are so many ways what she desired could turn wrong. That she was still harming innocents and sacrificing lives for a goal that, as well intentioned as she thought she was, as much as she tried to justify her actions, would still be twisted to evil.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Tami Seven on November 28, 2013, 04:08:52 PM ---Non-evil, extenuating circumstances can exist to justify 'breaking' each of the laws. In theory. But just because you are convinced that you have to kill Hitler with magic to save millions of lives, doesn't mean you won't be tainted by it, doesn't mean that it's not "Black Magic".
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I'm not disagreeing with that point. At all.
I am saying that the evidence of the first passage the Count quoted looks to me like using necromancy to actively save a life - the random gangster whose soul Kumori did something to so that it didn't leave his body and the hospital had a chance to get him back to a point where he could live - is not an inherently evil act, and Harry is realising and acknowledging that.
In DB, we see Grevane using necromancy in a crimes-against-individual-humans way - reanimating zombies left right and centre - and we do not see Cowl or Kumori do so; and my overall feeling from the book is that on the whole Harry finds Grevane to feel far fouler and more corrupt than Cowl and Kumori.
Tami Seven:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 28, 2013, 05:29:27 PM ---I'm not disagreeing with that point. At all.
I am saying that the evidence of the first passage the Count quoted looks to me like using necromancy to actively save a life - the random gangster whose soul Kumori did something to so that it didn't leave his body and the hospital had a chance to get him back to a point where he could live - is not an inherently evil act, and Harry is realising and acknowledging that.
In DB, we see Grevane using necromancy in a crimes-against-individual-humans way - reanimating zombies left right and centre - and we do not see Cowl or Kumori do so; and my overall feeling from the book is that on the whole Harry finds Grevane to feel far fouler and more corrupt than Cowl and Kumori.
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Corpstaker, too. But yeah, Cowl is dangerous but was not quite as blatantly evil as the other two. At least not until the ritual. That doesn't mean he's a nice person who isn't tainted.
Xandarth:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 28, 2013, 05:29:27 PM ---In DB, we see Grevane using necromancy in a crimes-against-individual-humans way - reanimating zombies left right and centre - and we do not see Cowl or Kumori do so; and my overall feeling from the book is that on the whole Harry finds Grevane to feel far fouler and more corrupt than Cowl and Kumori.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Grevane's behaviour shows he's gone further down the path of the warlock which, as I understand it, is that using black magic to achieve your desires makes you more likely to use black magic to achieve your desires in future to the point that eventually you won't see any other method of doing so.
Most of the warlocks (or potential warlocks) in the series have major control issues. Their desire to control or possess the things they want often make them irrational in their attempts to reassert their control when they think they have lost it or in their attempts to gain possession of things / people they want.
The young warlock Harry saw executed was a classic example. He starts off mind controlling a family member to avoid some punishment or to get something he wants. Then he does it more and more until every single person in his social circle is a puppet under his control. But then we find out he had one of them murdered. On the face of it this makes little sense until you factor in that mind controlling people causes permanent brain damage. It's likely the murdered family member became unable to obey his instructions any more and the loss of control over the situation led to him having them killed in a fit of rage.
Grevane and Corpsetaker both seem well down the same path. Corpsetakers fear of death and Grevane's need to control the people around him are pathological, whereas Kumori seems still to be at the justification level of warlockdom where she tries to convince herself she can stop any time and only does it when she really needs to. She's probably at a similar stage along the process that Molly is at.
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