The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: ebliss1 on November 19, 2013, 04:47:00 PM ---I've always had the same issue with Jim's magic rules in the DV.
If Harry uses a magical wind to blow a killer off of a mortal and the killer accidentally falls over and cracks his skull on the pavement, Harry is a warlock and must die immediately before he can kill again. If Harry were to just pull out his .44 magnum and shoot a random citizen, he's not a warlock, just (for lack of a better term) a jerk in the eyes of the White Council.
But, it's Jim's sandbox and he sets the rules.
--- End quote ---
Myself, i think Jim's making a point about a universe where metaphysics and magic work in ways that aren't necessarily fair or just.
ebliss1:
--- Quote ---The White Council and the Laws of Magic are mainly about restraining wizards from misusing magic and protecting the mortal world from their predations when it involves black magic. The mortal world has its own Laws with respect to how mortals behave. I would assume that the White Council allows the mortal authorities to deal with illegal nonmagical acts by wizards. WC would only step in if their were violations of the magical laws. Though their are flaws with this setup, I do see the need for the council to constrain such actions.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but the ideas put forth are less about "justice for lawbreakers" and more about "irreversible mental damage".
I personally have a problem with the idea that Jeffrey Dahmer, had he been a member of the White Council, could have done what he did using purely non-magic means, and NOT be a raving warlock with his magic.
Similarly, that a raving warlock like the asian kid that Harry watched executed who uses his magic to kill and torture regularly, would be able to be a perfectly respectable member of mortal society with zero spillover. (This is different from "appearing" to be a perfectly respectable member of mortal society - al la Marcone.)
The idea that the mortal world and the magical world are such seperate universes within one individual so as to have no contamination one way or the other is bothersome.
Serack:
--- Quote from: ebliss1 on November 19, 2013, 04:47:00 PM ---I've always had the same issue with Jim's magic rules in the DV.
If Harry uses a magical wind to blow a killer off of a mortal and the killer accidentally falls over and cracks his skull on the pavement, Harry is a warlock and must die immediately before he can kill again. If Harry were to just pull out his .44 magnum and shoot a random citizen, he's not a warlock, just (for lack of a better term) a jerk in the eyes of the White Council.
But, it's Jim's sandbox and he sets the rules.
--- End quote ---
My paradigm for how magic works based off of many WoJ's and canon. This paradigm is that using magic is essentially using your will to rewrite reality as you see fit (this post outlines a lot of this paradigm but in a different context). Harry spends a lot of time pontificating about magic requiring that you believe in what you are doing. He also discusses how changing something causes a reciprocal change upon yourself (White Night discussion with “Lash”) so if you are using your will/magic to rewrite reality to snuff the life/free will out of mortals (or even non-mortals), reality is going to push back and reshape your own being in consistent way.
Blowing someone away with a 44 has its own consequences, and Jim has even said that Eb has to deal with that level of consequences when he kills someone using the Blackstaff, but rewriting reality itself because you feel reality should include someone's heart not beating, or get burnt to cinders, or crushed to a bloody pulpy mass is going to result in metaphysical pushback of consequences on a whole different level.
--- Quote from: ebliss1 on November 19, 2013, 06:44:46 PM ---Yes, but the ideas put forth are less about "justice for lawbreakers" and more about "irreversible mental damage".
I personally have a problem with the idea that Jeffrey Dahmer, had he been a member of the White Council, could have done what he did using purely non-magic means, and NOT be a raving warlock with his magic.
Similarly, that a raving warlock like the asian kid that Harry watched executed who uses his magic to kill and torture regularly, would be able to be a perfectly respectable member of mortal society with zero spillover. (This is different from "appearing" to be a perfectly respectable member of mortal society - al la Marcone.)
--- End quote ---
Jim/the canon acknoledges this problem with the wouncil's 7 laws and says that Margret was actually pushing for them/the council to change because of that very issue.
--- Quote ---The idea that the mortal world and the magical world are such seperate universes within one individual so as to have no contamination one way or the other is bothersome.
--- End quote ---
Although magic does have a seperate/higher level of consequences, I think the level of seperation you are atributing to the DV here is contrived.
novaseaker:
--- Quote from: ebliss1 on November 19, 2013, 06:44:46 PM ---The idea that the mortal world and the magical world are such seperate universes within one individual so as to have no contamination one way or the other is bothersome.
--- End quote ---
I think you are right, but also wrong.
I believe that you are right in the sense that, yes, it would be ludicrous to expect a mass murdering wizard to restrain himself and only use non-magic in his killing sprees, thereby avoiding sanction by the White Council. Obviously you should expect there to be contamination.
I believe that you are wrong in the sense that, no, it would be ludicrous to expect a mass murdering wizard to restrain himself and only use non-magic in his killing sprees, thereby avoiding sanction by the White Council. Obviously you should expect there to be contamination.
In other words... where have you seen evidence in the series of such a character? Where have we seen a criminally-inclined magic user that acted to harm mortals without using magic? Have we seen anyone abuse this "loophole" yet? I'm wracking my brain trying to think of someone, but I can't. I'd posit that you're exactly right, there would be contamination, so there always is, and therefore the point you're trying to make is moot.
cass:
--- Quote from: ebliss1 on November 19, 2013, 04:47:00 PM ---I've always had the same issue with Jim's magic rules in the DV.
If Harry uses a magical wind to blow a killer off of a mortal and the killer accidentally falls over and cracks his skull on the pavement, Harry is a warlock and must die immediately before he can kill again. If Harry were to just pull out his .44 magnum and shoot a random citizen, he's not a warlock, just (for lack of a better term) a jerk in the eyes of the White Council.
But, it's Jim's sandbox and he sets the rules.
--- End quote ---
Huh. I always figured that the WCouncil operated on the principle that they would take care of magical crimes and let the mortal authorities deal with the mundane crimes-- even if they are perpetrated by wizards. This policy makes sense if you go back to the whole stance of not getting involved with politics. (I mean, I know that there is probably no country on Earth that doesn't outlaw murder....but it would set a precedent of enforcing laws--or choosing which mundane laws to enforce--that would very quickly become tricky given the diversity of countries represented within the WC. Plus, what would happen in the case of non-capital crimes? Would they all be capital, even things that would be considered misdemeanors? What if they were committed in the mundane world but on behalf of the Council? (e.g., A messenger trespasses onto private property when exiting a Way carrying urgent information for the Council. The Way had changed since the last time it was used; the messenger could not have predicted this. Is it still a crime in the eyes of the mundane world? Yes...but it would put the Council in an awkward position if it was then forced to prosecute.)
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