The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Hells Bells,Stars and Stones, and Empty Night info and theory compilation thread
Patrick Bateman:
Why would Anzu be the original godzilla? I thought that he a bodyguard who stole a clay tablet from Anu. And I was under the impression that he was an eagle that had a lion's head. Sorry my sumerian mythology is pretty rusty.
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on May 15, 2013, 06:34:16 PM ---id recommend hitting your library and checking out comparative religions.. the connection between Tehom and the Sumerian/Babylonian Tiamat is very highly debated; the archaeology papers ive read tend to consider it very plausible while more religious authors- especially some conservative Christians- hate it.
on the nets, some good write ups ive found include:
http://anystrom.blogspot.com/2008/08/tehom-and-tiamat-concept-of-chaols-in.html
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3141790
http://archive.org/stream/babylonianinflu00palmgoog#page/n8/mode/2up
as a non believer I can see the thematic/ linguistic/ artistic connections and understand that Abrahamic religions did not evolve in a vacuum (note the flood myth, which has similar connections) but at the same time I understand why some believers might have issues with the idea.
either way, it's common enough I think it's likely Jim may have run into it, and do you really see him turning down the chance to use the original Godzilla?
;)
--- End quote ---
I actually have a theory-I don't know if its been brought up before- that Tehom is the Outsiders. I believe-correct me if I'm wrong- that Tehom was the primordial darkness before God said "let their be light". It resented the light so the "spirit of God" quelled the darkness/chaos and in the DV cast it out.
Tehom being the Outsiders also explains how the Outsiders can be a hivemind and also explains HWWB's statement in Ghost Story:
--- Quote from: Ghost Story Chapter 32 ---"This isn't your world," I whispered.
"Not now," He Who Walks Behind murmured, its smile widening. "But it will be ours again in just a little time."
--- End quote ---
The Outsiders being associated with "voids" and "coldness" also meshes nicely with the primioridal darkness being them.
This theory also meshes nicely with mithrandirthewhite's theory that the Firmament = Outer Gates ( http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36172.msg1721369.html#msg1721369). In this theory the "flood" is actually the Outsiders/Tehom. The links you posted also say that Tehom fundamentally means “flood.”
It also explains why the Outsiders would want "Empty Night". They resent the creation of "light' (this may mean actuall light and/or mortals. I suspect the sky being starless at the Outer Gates means it is both symbolic and literal). The "stars" could also represent being with souls/Free Will. Their are a ton of us surrounded by soulless beings and objects just like their are a ton of stars surrounded by darkness.
I don't think that Tehom is a dragon goddess in the DV because Dragons aren't really "alien" enough to be Outsiders. Plus we've already seen Dragons before.
Thoughts?
Ms Duck:
quite plausible ;)
I often associate outsiders with lovecraft, but no law says Jim can't combine things. he has before :)
empty night in lovecraft is a reference to when the elder gods would return, I believe.
(its hard to be certain about lovecraft, there is no clear canon to go by)
--- Quote from: Patrick Bateman on May 15, 2013, 07:12:04 PM ---Why would Anzu be the original godzilla? I thought that he a bodyguard who stole a clay tablet from Anu. And I was under the impression that he was an eagle that had a lion's head. Sorry my sumerian mythology is pretty rusty.
--- End quote ---
that's tiamat, from the creation myth Enuma Elish, at least according to the citations- the dragon goddess of chaos, the darkness upon the face of the deep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1
123456789blaaa:
The Tehom=Outsiders theory doesn't really fit here that much (except for the bit about Empty Night). I think I'll create a new thread.
In the meantime new theories, quotes, and thoughts on how to organize the OP are welcome.
taishojojo:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on May 15, 2013, 05:57:48 PM ---one thought upon Hell's bells.. silence upon the face of the deep is also a reference to Tehom, the ancient Hebrew dragon goddess, and the original Hell's Belle
there is a woj that the current WG and Lucifer are not the original, having the original dragon goddess of hell.. all 300' feet and five fire breathing heads of her.. show up always seemed very Jim to me, somehow.
--- End quote ---
[summon target="Serack"]
IIRC...
The WoJ in my head goes a little differently. It states (paraphrasing) "who is to say they [WG and Lucifer] are not the originals? We wouldn't know." He appeared to be speculating; not necessarily a statement of DV fact.
[/summon]
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