Sponsored Magic and Refinement

[Theonlyspiral]

Quick Question: When you have evocation, can you use refinement to specialize in the element granted by your Sponsored Magic?

[Deadmanwalking]

Depends on whether that's one of your Evocation Elements. If you have Evocation (Fire, Air, Water) you nee to specialize in those, even if you've got Seelie Magic, since you're flavoring your existing elements with Summer, not using it as an element per se.

On the other hand if you're using an alternate element set and have Evocation (Summer, Spring, Autumn) you could grab Summer as a specialization whether you have Seelie Magic or not.

[Dr.FunLove]

Why would that be Deadmanwalking? Chances are an alternate Elemental paradigm could be said to have traits that, from your example, would match with Summer or Winter. Wouldn't the logic be that either Sponsored Magic can be used as seperate Elements or just flavors on the existing ones, not both?

Just wondering.

[Theonlyspiral]

The character in question has  Earth, Fire and Spirit. The Sponsored Magic is providing Formor style water magic.

[Deadmanwalking]

Why would that be Deadmanwalking? Chances are an alternate Elemental paradigm could be said to have traits that, from your example, would match with Summer or Winter. Wouldn't the logic be that either Sponsored Magic can be used as seperate Elements or just flavors on the existing ones, not both?

Just wondering.

I'm...not quite sure what you're asking, actually. Could you rephrase?

The character in question has  Earth, Fire and Spirit. The Sponsored Magic is providing Formor style water magic.

Ah, then no he couldn't get specializations in that. He could buy Water as an element and get specializations in that if he wished, though. Or use Fire, Earth, or Spirit in an entropy-tainted way to take advantage of existing ones plus Sponsored Magic.

[Dr.FunLove]

Surely - why would it not be one or the other: either they are their own Elements or they are simply flavors on top of the existing ones a practitioner might have.

[Theonlyspiral]

The reason for my confusion is because in YS on 287 it mentions that the source of your magic gets added to your existing areas of specialization.

[Hick Jr]

I generally find it better to use it as an Evocation element than as flavor for other elements. It produces basically the same effect while allowing more variations within the scope of the Sponsored Evocation.

[Deadmanwalking]

Surely - why would it not be one or the other: either they are their own Elements or they are simply flavors on top of the existing ones a practitioner might have.

True...but if the flavor added on is identical to an existing element you possess, this becomes mostly an academic distinction.

The reason for my confusion is because in YS on 287 it mentions that the source of your magic gets added to your existing areas of specialization.

True...but it's not really an element in it's own right. It's a thing that colors the existing elements. See Harry's Hellfire enhanced Spirit Evocations in Dead Beat, for example.

[Theonlyspiral]

Is it an either or situation? Can it do both? It lists supercharging other elements separately from adding to your areas of specialization.  Can it flavour other elements AND be  used on its own? And if you use it on it's own can you refine it? Could you use focus slots to make an item increasing your skills with it? Or is it actually just significantly worse with Evocation?

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't know what the RAW are here and I don't much care. I'd allow it.

It's mechanically balanced and thematically valid, so...why not?

[Hick Jr]

You can do both.

I consider it to be better with both Evocation and Thaumaturgy because now you can use Specializations with it. For example, Eldest Gruff probably has the Wizard package along with Seelie Magic, with Specializations in Seelie Magic as a thematic thaumaturgy element and an evocation element.

[Tedronai]

True...but it's not really an element in it's own right. It's a thing that colors the existing elements. See Harry's Hellfire enhanced Spirit Evocations in Dead Beat, for example.

So what is it that you think that passage means in terms of game rules?

[Deadmanwalking]

So what is it that you think that passage means in terms of game rules?

'Extra area of focus' means you can cast spells as appropriate to that area, and get Sponsored Magic benefits when doing so, that doesn't necessarily mean it counts as a separate Element for Evocation...which is actually the sort of thing you'd think would be explicitly laid out were it intended.

[Hick Jr]

There are rules for different Evocation elements, including a specific direction to make your own.

There are rules for Sponsored-Magic enhanced Evocation, which explicitly describes the standard Evocation elements enhanced by a sponsor.

I composite these as "Sponsored Magic lets you use that magic as a Thematic Thaumaturgy and an Evocation Element.". ^{i can capitalise whatever i want, colonial heathen}