The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
Ms Duck:
I don't believe stable time loops are even possible in the df; from everything that's ever been said, the future at any point is only possible; not definite.
having a time loop would thus violate the magical rule of free will and the law of conservation of magic.
(when future harry goes back to fix LC, he voids any decisions any person could make until the point he leaves.. for example, Molly no longer had the choice of going to the council or not at the end of PG. its is now fated she will... Uriel will be ticked )
wizard nelson:
oh god, don't complicate things by mentioning free will and time travel in the same post. my head might pop if i have to wrap it around that one. :'(
thats why he doesn't go around meddling with everything but works from behind the scenes. if he went back and messed with free will it becomes a divergent parallel instead of a loop. you have to effect a choice to screw with free will. time travel isn't possible at all then except we know it is or the WC wouldn't feel the need for a law on it. going back and effecting things at all effects free will. whose to say mortals aren't free to do that?( I think that was my point in the other thread that time travel and changing things requires a mortals touch)
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 05:16:27 AM ---thats why its a time loop ;) to again reference terminator how did john send his dad back in time to father him if he hadn't done it yet? in that one particular time stream it ALWAYS happened and couldn't have happened any other way. this does not discount the idea of parallel divergence or them becoming paradox but this is what a novikov time loop is, a self contained time stream that exists because time travel was used to create it. i know, it doesn't answer your question directly but thats because until someone actually uses time travel its all theory, there is no answer.
--- End quote ---
I guess either people aren't reading the thread to see that we've already discussed the paradox/time loop issue, or they're not understanding that using the Merlin Emrys Temporal Bridge Using a Pocket Dimension (METBUPD) means that there wouldn't have been a first time that Harry didn't fix it.
Am I really the only one that's seeing that possibility? I know Duck doesn't like it because of the power requirements. I don't want to rehash those points. I'm just befuddled by people not getting what I'm saying. This is when I need someone to translate what's in my head to the thread. Someone summon aShorty.
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 13, 2013, 02:20:51 PM ---I guess either people aren't reading the thread to see that we've already discussed the paradox/time loop issue, or they're not understanding that using the Merlin Emrys Temporal Bridge Using a Pocket Dimension (METBUPD) means that there wouldn't have been a first time that Harry didn't fix it.
Am I really the only one that's seeing that possibility? I know Duck doesn't like it because of the power requirements. I don't want to rehash those points. I'm just befuddled by people not getting what I'm saying. This is when I need someone to translate what's in my head to the thread. Someone summon aShorty.
--- End quote ---
I understand your logic, but its circular. Harry doesn't have to fix it because harry fixed it but doesn't have to fix it because he fixed it...
A- it violates free will
B- circular reasoning is inherently problematic
C- stable time loops can only exist in a deterministic universe
let's say I find a time machine. its just there. I walk in, learn how to use it, and go back in time to the day before, leaving it there for me to find
does that mean the time machine was created by the time loop, and thus has no beginning and no end? Nobody made it, this just appeared?
problems-
conservation: of it was possible to do this, there would be no conservation of energy, which according to mother winter does exist
free will: what if the next me in the cycle decides to keep it and do something else?
random chance: what if the machine break mid loop?
temporal echo's: in the df, messing with time creates artifacts. Just how screwed up did I just make the universe?
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 02:29:30 PM ---I understand your logic, but its circular. Harry doesn't have to fix it because harry fixed it but doesn't have to fix it because he fixed it...
--- End quote ---
I'm not seeing why this is a problem.
--- Quote ---A- it violates free will
--- End quote ---
No more than any other case of Harry doing something because it's the sort of thing he does and can be relied on to do.
--- Quote ---B- circular reasoning is inherently problematic
--- End quote ---
How so ? I can see taking closed-causal loops as problematic on axiomatic grounds, but if you are not a priori supposing it, i am not seeing an actual argument here.
--- Quote ---C- stable time loops can only exist in a deterministic universe
--- End quote ---
Not seeing your argument for this either. An individual stable time loop in a broader free-willed universe seems no more problematic to me than saying that, while in a free-willed universe it's possible for me to catch a pen falling off my desk, there can exist in that free-willed universe some specific instances where the pen falls off my desk and deterministically hits the floor.
--- Quote ---let's say I find a time machine. its just there. I walk in, learn how to use it, and go back in time to the day before, leaving it there for me to find
does that mean the time machine was created by the time loop, and thus has no beginning and no end? Nobody made it, this just appeared?
--- End quote ---
Yep.
--- Quote ---conservation: of it was possible to do this, there would be no conservation of energy, which according to mother winter does exist
--- End quote ---
Not an issue. You're not adding anything to the universe long-term. Your time machine exists for one day in a closed loop.
--- Quote ---free will: what if the next me in the cycle decides to keep it and do something else?
--- End quote ---
What "next you" ? There's only ever one you who makes one decision once.
--- Quote ---random chance: what if the machine break mid loop?
--- End quote ---
If it's there for you to find, it already hasn't broken. That's like having problems with the bus that took you to work this morning being there to take you to work this morning because what if it had broken down yesterday ?
--- Quote ---temporal echo's: in the df, messing with time creates artifacts. Just how screwed up did I just make the universe?
--- End quote ---
Sfaict from CD, the echoes are of finite duration and extent and fade with distance from the event. So a one-day loop where you're not doing much else does not seem to have much impact on anything.
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