The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 13, 2013, 09:43:04 PM ---Why do they have to have choice in the then now ? Is not choice in the now noew enough ?
--- End quote ---
because in a non deterministic reality, there is no 'past' or ;future' there is only the now, and 'possibilities'. When an object travels to Point B, they change that reality, even if only by their presence. At which point all the dice need to be rolled all over again.
--- Quote ---I took the recent WoJ as indicating that there's a branching tree of realities arising from every point of exercise of free will anyway.
If that was intended as metahumour at the "this statement floats in a void with no causal connection to anything preceding" level, I salute your subtletly. If not, I'll have to ask you to unpack your reasoning a bit more.
--- End quote ---
mm ill try to unpack. I don't believe in a non deterministic universe actual time travel is possible; for example when your traveler gets into his machine at point 2013, and travels to 1961, he creates first two alternates futures:
one in which he did travel, and one in which he did not
and then two more alternate pasts...it goes exponential from there
maybe its all my marvel comics leaking thru, but at least here, its impossible to travel to your actual past or your future (because of paradox) you can only travel to your alternate past and or alternate future.
:D
aShorty21:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 03:56:22 PM ---The whole point of the loop/bridge time-travel concept proposed here is that there wouldn't be a time where it didn't happen.
From Uriel's perspective, time is not linear. Stand back far enough, and it's apparently wibbly wobbly. By creating a permanent temporal bridge, those 5 times are linked to occur at the same time the first time. There was no time he didn't make the prison.
Picture a piece of string. It's linear, as mortals see time. Now imagine that Merlin got help creating a loop, where two parts of the string overlap, like this:
Where the string overlaps itself is two separate points of time. Now imagine a pin getting pushed through the string, bonding the two points together. That makes them permanently bound together. Only instead of just one loop for two points, there are 4 loops for 5 points of time.
The reason Ms Duck has an issue with it is because messing with time like that would seem to be a very high-level trick. She thinks that it would take a WG-level talent to do it.
But Merlin clearly did it, presumably with help. We can either assume that TWG helped, but if so, why did TWG both involving a mortal at all? Or we can assume that one or multiple lower-tier powers (Mab, Odin, Uriel) worked together to do it.
We know that the Ladies working together were able to channel their attack across multiple times. So the idea that there are time-travel capabilities among the powers isn't outrageous. By nature, Mab should be more powerful than Maeve in that aspect.
Again, the theory breaks down at why do it. There was clearly a major, reality-level need for Merlin to create the DR prison. If it's as difficult as Duck suspects, then it would require a reality-level need for Harry to go back. And I can't think of one.
But if it doesn't take as much power to create a single bridge, and there were a really-really-important-reason for him to go back, then Mab and others might work together to get it done. I still don't know why, though.
--- End quote ---
Ok I've been away for a while and I just completed my read of this thread. I wish I was in on the conversation from the begining.
With that being said, I feel like some people are having trouble grasping Griffyn's concept of the time loop/ribbon. So here is my swag at it.
Let's back up a dimension. Think in 3 dimensions. Harry climbs up a ladder. He then goes down a spiral slide. Weeeeee! He then walks away from the slide. Think of the ground as a flat plan defined by X-Y space. Think of up as the Z direction. If you are in the sky looking down at Harry, Harry passes through the same X-Y point every loop of the slide. The only difference was in the Z (up) direction. From Harry's point of view he just went down the slide and then continued on his day. From the 2D point of view he passed through the same point.
Now to step it up a notch. To realize that Harry didn't pass through the same 3D point (only a 2D) one you have to observe the 3D path as it happens. Basically you have to be able to percieve time as linear to understand how the trip down the slide works in 3D vs 2D. So now back to the time loop theory. Same basic principle but in more dimensions. Harry is walking through space and time (4D), does something magical to pass through the same point in time he has already passed through. This is only obvious and understandable if viewed from the 5th dimension. So we can only comprehend how he does it while observing in 5D.
I find the Time Travel Loop theory plausable, but unexplainable because I don't think in 5D. How do you explain height to a 2D being?
Cenphx:
Ok, I get what you are saying, aShorty21, but if you are correct, then we are never going to get a better description or understanding of what Merlin did to create DR (assuming it was the folding time like a ribbon deal) and if Griffyn is correct that what Time Travel Harry did is the same time folding thing, then we also wont get any real description of how or why it works when Harry does it. At most we would get the kind of information DR gave to Harry through Bob in the Merlin movie. I have suspended my disbelief in other sci-fi settings, but it seems a little weird to do it in a first person narration. I mean, if Harry is able to understand it enough to work the spell or whatever I is, why cant we be brought along with his understanding?
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 09:55:52 PM ---because in a non deterministic reality, there is no 'past' or ;future' there is only the now, and 'possibilities'. When an object travels to Point B, they change that reality, even if only by their presence. At which point all the dice need to be rolled all over again.
--- End quote ---
And we know this is not the case in the DV because of Odin saying that what has happened tends to continue to have happened.
--- Quote ---mm ill try to unpack. I don't believe in a non deterministic universe actual time travel is possible; for example when your traveler gets into his machine at point 2013, and travels to 1961, he creates first two alternates futures:
one in which he did travel, and one in which he did not
--- End quote ---
Granting that much for the sake of argument...
--- Quote ---and then two more alternate pasts...it goes exponential from there
--- End quote ---
How, again, does this differ from what we are told happens with any exercise of free will not involving time travel ?
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: aShorty21 on February 13, 2013, 10:28:00 PM ---I find the Time Travel Loop theory plausable, but unexplainable because I don't think in 5D. How do you explain height to a 2D being?
--- End quote ---
One of the hardest parts of this sort of discussion is that I can trivially think in four spatial dimensions and do five if I push it; it's very useful for complex database design. But finding good words for how that looks inside my head has been balking me for decades.
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