The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
Ben de Wal:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 12, 2013, 12:31:04 AM ---Serack did an excellent analysis a few years ago that was the basis for many ideas about the gatekeeper being the culprit; it should be in reference someplace.
I still hold Mab as suspect number one though; some of the comments in CD:
- she knows what Harrys apartment looks like
- she knew about bob all along
- sidhe can walk thru thresholds
all seem to me to be less cluebats and more of " good grief, haven't you all solved this one by now?" On Jim's part
--- End quote ---
agreed i figure mab wanted harry to find molly ;)
Tarion:
Personally, I'm a strong proponent of Ebenezer, given that we know he knows how to get into Harry's basement, that he can break the Laws of Magic (and thus frolic against the currents of time to his heart's content), was in Chicago at the time and had an interest in protecting Harry. I'll try to put up a thread with all of the evidence for the Index later.
I still think Mab's a better fit, overall.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 10:33:36 PM ---well first its explicit that thomas was home, not that he saw anything or remembers seeing it.
--- End quote ---
It's also explicit that Thomas was utterly freaked out. He had a shotgun waiting when Harry was opening the door. Keep in mind, this is after Dead Beat, so Thomas knows about the wards, and knows exactly what they can do.
For him to be worried means that he no longer trusts the wards, which means that something made him not trust them. The alternatives are someone getting inside the house without activating the wards, or some sort of spell getting to him through the wards.
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 10:33:36 PM ---second its rather more complex of a spell than any of those on your list.
--- End quote ---
I'm not certain I would agree that the Loup Garou circle was a simple magical construct, really. But in any case, let's up the complexity then.
- Luccio figured out what the Dark Hallow was going to do (kill a bunch of people) before Harry even got halfway through the explanation of what the Dark Hallow was.
- It took Bob almost no time at all to figure out the mechanics of the Bloodline Curse once he was at Chicken Pizza. He could even give Harry all sorts of little details about it.
So even with a once-in-a-millenium sort of spell (or a whole school of magic you've only ever seen used from the outside and never used yourself), figuring it out is not all that difficult for one of the wise.
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 10:33:36 PM ---not saying he couldn't have done it but threshold+ knowing LC existed+ knowing how it worked and finally knowing it was messed up in the first place makes it unlikely.
--- End quote ---
That doesn't just make it unlikely for the Gatekeeper, though. That plain makes it unlikely for everyone! Even for Mab, really. I find it hard to believe that she would spend the time looking into Harry's house that Lea did (she's kinda busy running an empire at war, you know?), so the idea that she discovered the existence of the flaw while Bob and Harry were working on LC is ludicrous to me (plus, it's one thing to watch someone while they sleep, another to watch an active wizard when he's wizarding and not be noticed by his supernatural senses).
But we know it happened; someone did fix Little Chicago, so the question becomes, who is the most likely to overcome that list of hurdles? And I still say the Gatekeeper has better means and opportunity than Mab does.
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 10:33:36 PM ---if forsight is the only thing rashid has that puts him on the list one could argue it was odin keeping an eye on his next 'apprentice' as he obviously has had his eye on harry awhile.
[...]
wanted to add, odin as kringle knows of all human deeds and misdeeds so its possible he knew abot it
--- End quote ---
It's not just foresight, it's interest. The Gatekeeper made sure to involve himself in the situation from the very first moment, and Odin, to put it simply, didn't show a whisker. At the same time, from the Doylist perspective, for Odin to be involved, the author must have made some mention of it. Like, say, the scene where The protagonist and his talking head sit down and discuss Rashid's motivation in getting involved in the case. That's not a clue bat, that's a freaking neon sign.
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 10:33:36 PM ---my main problem with it being any forsight or anything but a possible Novikov self-consistency principle time warp is any forsight gained would be in direct response to learning harry popped his head, meaning it 1000 times more likely to happen again (per odins explanation) so forsight being a factor is really iffy. how would they gain the required knowledge on LC without contaminating the timeline?
--- End quote ---
I'm afraid that the Novikov self-consistency principle has been proven in the book to not apply to prophecy / foresight. Examples include:
- The prophecy in Death Masks only included two alternatives: Harry dies, or the Knights all die. Neither of these happens.
- Abby replied to a question before he got a chance to make it, and her reply stopped him from making it. Meaning, the timeline where he asked the question never happened in the first place.
- The Gatekeeper used some sort of ability to determine Harry's chances near the end of Turn Coat. This ability gave two different results. If the ability is foresight / time-based (as the dialogue in that scene implies) then it saw two different futures.
Currently my internet at home is down. Will reply to the others during my lunch break.
wizard nelson:
umm thomas was also groggy and grabbing his face like he just had a bad dream. givin the very similar nature of WC demon and half reds i'd say its possible to intrance either.
its actually far more likely for mab to know as acting godmother, i think your forgetting rashid was unsure of harry till atl TC. mab was in better position and with more power and incentive.
--- Quote --- At the same time, from the Doylist perspective, for Odin to be involved, the author must have made some mention of it.
--- End quote ---
like its totally mentioned that the FBI headquarters links up with erlking in FM? oh wait... its a mystery so laying everything on the table and making it obvious is kinda lame.
--- Quote ---I'm afraid that the Novikov self-consistency principle has been proven in the book to not apply to prophecy / foresight.
--- End quote ---
not sure what telling you past self harry popped his head has to do with novikov?point was if GK got his knowledge from forsight then it would have been WAY too much, list-LC exists, it has flaw
wizard nelson:
(continuation) and harry popped his head. now if harry already popped his head then GK can't change this. if rashid only(name another way he'd know?) knows from forsight he cant change this per odin as it already happened and he learned it ATF. as someone else pointed our GK doesn't screw around like that with time, pretty sure thats directly against the 'current' to even attempt the impossible of changing the past.
:o
not entirely sure how to respond to alot of what you said because(and maybe we're just on two totally different wavelengths) i don't understand its relevance? it does seem to me your twisting facts to suit theory instead of theory to fit facts, a holmesian no, no btw.
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