The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 03:06:37 PM ---point one: Dead Beat
after he refuses to take the WK job, Mab still helps him anyway. PG 180. Hard back
"I must do what I might to preserve your life. Know this, Mortal: should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the word.."
--- End quote ---
Actually, if you read a little bit before that, you realize that even when Mab was replying strictly as Lea, she'd already revealed that Lea knew about the Word of Kemmler ("The Word of Kemmler. Has it been found?"). So that little tidbit is actually based on Lea's knowledge, not Mab's. The fact that she even says that she must do it makes it sound like she's doing it out of (Lea's) obligation rather than because she wants to or believes it will prove beneficial in the future (though of course, the beauty of motivations is that one can have more than one at a time).
Which makes sense; considering how similar the Erlking's ascension is with the Dark Hallow, and that it requires the Erlking in the first place, it doesn't surprise me that any Fae who was alive when Kemmler first attempted it heard all about it.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 03:06:37 PM ---and she does one of her prophecy moments the next page away :
"one day you shall kneel at my feet."
these are kind of important, because Mab cannot lie. If she uses future tense like that, it means its something she has foreseen. and there a bunch of them.
(I have a standing WAG that after the series is over, a reader will be able to go thru the books and check off everything Mab said.. its very Jim, somehow.)
--- End quote ---
...Isn't this a classic example of those "squishy words" you abscribe to Mab? I mean, as it stands, we know she can physically move him however she wants. All she's saying here is that he will be in that physical pose, not that he'll accept the job; perfect Fae play on words. She can say such a thing because she firmly believes it to be true; we know from Ghost Story that she can say something that's wrong so long as she believes it to be true.
Ironically, both the spirt and the letter of the statement did happen, just on different books. Harry knelt at her feet during Small Favor, and Harry took the deal during Changes (no kneeling involved, though). But it doesn't change the fact that this was no prophecy, this was playing on words to put psychological pressure on Harry.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 03:06:37 PM ---in CD, Harry doesn't question if Mab can see the future, but how far
"could Mab see that far ahead? or was this simply a case of superior preparedness in action? "
as to the things Mab said in CD at the end, she deliberately used squishy language. She has gotten very good at letting Harry assume what he wants to hear. ;)
--- End quote ---
Out of curiosity, where exactly is the squishyness in "It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve" and "I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place" if she had future knowledge of what was about to happen?
In any case, it's also worth pointing out that it wasn't Harry that said the Mab was surprised by Maeve's actions, it was Maeve herself who said it. I'm willing to say that after more than a few centuries, Maeve would know if Mab saw it coming or not.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 03:06:37 PM ---the one thing (and maybe its just egotism) that make me think Mab is the more likely is the logic chain. Using it, back in 2006, I predicted the end of Cold Days with some accuracy. I also predicted that Harry would die, that Mab would brign him back, that it would involve demon reach..
Now I got the details wrong. Time Travel wasn't directly involved, but indirectly thru Mab's precognition; and the attacking force was the outsiders, not the black court.
but it was close enough that even though I had left the board, people started emailing me to say things like 'OMG DUCK !!'
so it must have been somewhat on the ball... lol.
or just very very very lucky.
--- End quote ---
Oh, my hat's off to you in recognition of your prior achievements, and I'm more than ready for it to happen again. Thing is, though, every angle I look at, it makes sense for Rashid to be much more involved in this book than what we actually saw, and LC is such a big source of involvement, that it makes it seem like he did it instead.
Ms Duck:
I think well have to disagree about DB, I read that differently, as I don't think Lea knew all the details about the word.
--- Quote ---Out of curiosity, where exactly is the squishyness in "It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve" and "I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place" if she had future knowledge of what was about to happen?
--- End quote ---
'my intention' and 'I meant' can mean many different things.
and Just to be clear, the future in the DF is not absolute. its a potential state; what Mab sees are the things that may happen, not what will. Every time she makes a change, it distorts her vision a bit.
now realize that Nemesis has very similar powers, and the two of them are out to get each other, and things Like PG become clear. Its not one chess game, but hundreds, played at the same time, and the only way to win is to make a move the other side either misses or does not understand.
IMO, all of PG, SmF, and TC was Mab moving a pair of pawns ( Molly and Harry) into place to promote them later. And in order to get away with it, she did 20 other random moves all over the place :)
people come up with all these theories about 'why mab sent the hobbes' or 'why the fetches killed this person or that' when the easiest answer is ' because they are a distraction'
Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?
wizard nelson:
in reply to your point 1 your forgetting the WG got involved in PG too. michael even poses the question of maybe the point was to help harry the whole time. mab didn't do it alone the league of extraordinary godkin made a group effort to pull harry's fat outta the fire. mab doesn't need forsight. her mantle is the thing of cold ruthless logic. its a big chess computer capable of running innumerable calculations all at once
2 well.... you had to twist things to get out from under this one, i consider that a win on my point.
wizard nelson:
@ducky
did you catch the one in CD about mab saying (click to show/hide)don't worry mortal, the stars will fall from the sky before mab fullfills not her word. stars and stones! that really doesn't bode well for mab when cometh the BAT.
--- Quote ---Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?
--- End quote ---
omg so much better than that team jacob/edward bull.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM ---I think well have to disagree about DB, I read that differently, as I don't think Lea knew all the details about the word.
--- End quote ---
Neither did the Kemmlerites. It's not a particularly long leap of logic, however, to figure out that the information on the ritual that if the Kemmlerites are after the Word and the Erlking the night before Halloween, it's because they believe the Word has details on the Dark Hallow. I would say that's a leap of logic Lea could make. So yeah, agree to disagree on this one.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM ---'my intention' and 'I meant' can mean many different things.
--- End quote ---
Such as?
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM ---and Just to be clear, the future in the DF is not absolute. its a potential state; what Mab sees are the things that may happen, not what will. Every time she makes a change, it distorts her vision a bit.
--- End quote ---
Boy, is that a debatable statement. Literally, in fact: you're taking part in a separate topic on that very statement right now. However, if that's the case, it's only true for Mab. Uriel and angels in general actually seem to fix the future by their actions (like, say, 7 words, or Uriel telling Harry "Consider Odin's words carefully" or however it went) rather than distorting it. Similarly, Odin seems to know exactly the impact his words will have on Harry and the future. Not sure why hers would work that way...
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM ---now realize that Nemesis has very similar powers, and the two of them are out to get each other, and things Like PG become clear. Its not one chess game, but hundreds, played at the same time, and the only way to win is to make a move the other side either misses or does not understand.
IMO, all of PG, SmF, and TC was Mab moving a pair of pawns ( Molly and Harry) into place to promote them later.
--- End quote ---
Why does it have to be Mab? Everyone in the know is playing chess against Nemesis (except maybe Mother Winter). Since Mab states that the end result wasn't what she intended, why couldn't it be another player's plan? Maybe a wizard who's job is specifically to fight against beings like Nemesis? So much so, in fact, that they call him by a title related to his fight with Nemesis' species?
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM ---And in order to get away with it, she did 20 other random moves all over the place :)
people come up with all these theories about 'why mab sent the hobbes' or 'why the fetches killed this person or that' when the easiest answer is ' because they are a distraction'
--- End quote ---
... That's not actually how a good chess player works. There are no random moves. There are, however, sacrifices that must be made in order to gain a better position to stop the enemy's plans.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM ---Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?
--- End quote ---
Depends. What would the logo be?
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 06:35:43 PM ---in reply to your point 1 your forgetting the WG got involved in PG too. michael even poses the question of maybe the point was to help harry the whole time. mab didn't do it alone the league of extraordinary godkin made a group effort to pull harry's fat outta the fire. mab doesn't need forsight. her mantle is the thing of cold ruthless logic. its a big chess computer capable of running innumerable calculations all at once
--- End quote ---
Actually, I brought up the same point in my reply to you. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. Here's the thing, though: there's only one way to know that the WG's team will get involved in keeping Harry safe. That is foresight. Unless, of course, one has faith. In which case, even if you don't know, you believe that he will intervene.
Harry had faith in the WG at the end of PG. Like you said, Mab is the Queen of cold logic and Quid Pro Quo. Do you really think there's space anywhere in her personality for faith? If she doesn't have faith, or foresight, how can she know when the WG is going to intervene to keep Harry safe?
She can't, meaning, she had to do everything herself. And frankly, that particular "everything" is a doozy.
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 06:35:43 PM ---2 well.... you had to twist things to get out from under this one, i consider that a win on my point.
--- End quote ---
Aww, man, that's not fair! You asked me to come up with a possible message from the future, and I did, and now you say that's cheating?! Damned, if I do, damned if I don't :'( ::) ;D
On a more serious note, one can no longer say that it's impossible for Rashid to receive a message from the future with enough details to push him in the right direction, considering that I managed to come up with one. So I'm going to go ahead and consider it a win, too.
... Uhm, what was the point of me doing that again? I kinda forgot and just did it 'cause I thought it was a neat exercise.
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