The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
[All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote from: Elegast on February 12, 2013, 12:37:32 PM ---1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die:
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--- Quote from: Changes Chapter 30 ---"Yes," mused Mab's voice. "You will, won't you? And yes, you know that I do not kill indiscriminately, nor encourage my Knight to do so."
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Here you go.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 03:17:40 AM ---I see only 4 options for the myrk at Splattercon!!!.
- Maeve was there, and cast the myrk to cause further disruption and chaos for the fetch.
- The fetch itself cast the myrk, just like the hobs in SmF did.
- Mab cast the myrk remotely from AT.
- TTH, as the WK, cast the myrk to slow down the phage's attack.
The issue with it being Maeve is that we don't have any proof that Maeve was there, other than the lil' vamp. The issue with the fetch doing it is that none of the other fetches did it. The issue with Mab doing it is that she was busy in AT. And the issue with TTH doing it is... because he wasn't there?
There's a few things I like to point out about that particular attack.
1) The fetch presumably manifested in the room itself, based on Harry's observation at the end that the fetch came through Rosie's compact mirror. So who wrenched open the door with enough strength to rip it off its hinges?
2) The myrk cast by the hobbs in SmF wiped out all light, including Harry's amulet, but did nothing to impede his progress physically. But the myrk in PG allowed both Harry's amulet and staff runes to glow enough around him to see up to 15 feet, yet there was a physical ward included that impeded his ability to navigate toward the theatre.
3) Harry observed (once again) that the magic seemed familiar. But Harry hadn't experienced a myrk yet in the books, and hadn't felt any magic of Maeve's, other than her come-hither trick.
4) Someone was observed leaving the theatre, and then the myrk and pressure left. If Mab did it remotely, or the fetch did it itself, that observation wouldn't have been necessary.
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I propose an option #5. Molly did it.
The reason why it's familiar to Dresden is because it is a mental compulsion similar to the mind fog used by Elaine in Summer Knight that's urging him to stop moving forward (and he breaks it the same way, using his amulet). Really, when you look at this murk ward, it is precisely the kind of spell that a pre-trial Molly would use: a mental compulsion backed by an illusion of darkness (she keeps the illusion of darkness in her post-trial days, too, btw; it's the same spell she used against Luccio during Turn Coat).
We also know from the end of the book, when Harry confronts her at the church, that Molly can summon a not inconsiderate amount of power subconsciously, so she has the oomph for it. And it makes perfect sense for Molly to be near Rosie, since she told Sandra about how worried she was about Rosie in the prior scene, and it makes sense for Molly to hide from Harry rather than reveal her magic, since she's been doing it for years now.
Question is, what about the cold? Here's the thing, though: if you look at the last attack, we have the same coldness happen (it causes a fog to pop up), even though there is no murk that time. So the coldness and the murk are not actually related! The coldness is due to the fetch's presence, while the murk ward is due to another presence, specifically (in my opinion) Molly. Or Maeve, or TTH, or insert your alternative here. But really, I still say a mental compulsion / illusion spell yells "Molly did it!" to me.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Elegast on February 12, 2013, 12:37:32 PM ---I would add Sandra to the list. And we have no proof that the myrk in SmF was cast by the Hobbs.
1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die:
2) That's really problematic. Two possibilities: Mab was the one doing the job in SmF, hence the superior power. Or maybe the hobbs create their own myrk. There were hundreds of them, so their combined power would be significant.
3)Harry saw Maeve using her power in SK. And it leaked too.
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I usually think if Sandra as Mavra. So I didn't list her separately. But she'd be a good inclusion.
1) Maeve doesn't seem to hold much stock in human life. Why would she care about convention goers? And why would she be working with Mab on the situation? We're fairly confident that Maeve was Infected at that point. If anything, she'd be doing Mab's bidding, but stretching the limits. And I still don't know why she had to be pretending there was a summoner bringing the fetches. Molly was technically summoning them, which is why they went to her when Harry flipped it. She wasn't conscious of it, since it seemed to be a by-product.
2) Harry speculates in-book that the hobbs were pulling their own myrk across from the NN. He seemed to imply that was a normal tactic for them, and since they're basically allergic to light, I'd agree. No point in them ever crossing over if someone else always has to help by casting a myrk for them. But the fetches don't have the necessity, so it seems less likely they would be able to do it themselves.
3) That he did. I forgot about the magic used against Slate in their first encounter, and again briefly at the battle.
--- Quote from: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 12:52:12 PM ---I propose an option #5. Molly did it.
The reason why it's familiar to Dresden is because it is a mental compulsion similar to the mind fog used by Elaine in Summer Knight that's urging him to stop moving forward (and he breaks it the same way, using his amulet). Really, when you look at this murk ward, it is precisely the kind of spell that a pre-trial Molly would use: a mental compulsion backed by an illusion of darkness (she keeps the illusion of darkness in her post-trial days, too, btw; it's the same spell she used against Luccio during Turn Coat).
We also know from the end of the book, when Harry confronts her at the church, that Molly can summon a not inconsiderate amount of power subconsciously, so she has the oomph for it. And it makes perfect sense for Molly to be near Rosie, since she told Sandra about how worried she was about Rosie in the prior scene, and it makes sense for Molly to hide from Harry rather than reveal her magic, since she's been doing it for years now.
Question is, what about the cold? Here's the thing, though: if you look at the last attack, we have the same coldness happen (it causes a fog to pop up), even though there is no murk that time. So the coldness and the murk are not actually related! The coldness is due to the fetch's presence, while the murk ward is due to another presence, specifically (in my opinion) Molly. Or Maeve, or TTH, or insert your alternative here. But really, I still say a mental compulsion / illusion spell yells "Molly did it!" to me.
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So your theory is that a barely trained Molly cast a myrk over a large part of the convention center and a ward that held Harry back together, on her own, for the first time, while watching her friend get attacked by a monster and her other friend died?
Sorry, I don't buy that it was Molly. It's completely against her character to allow people to be killed in front of her, especially since we know she's empathic and tends to feel emotions so deeply. All that terror and death would have torn her up.
Myrk, darkness, and cold are all part of Winter. It makes sense either for Mab, Maeve, TTWKH, or the fetches to use it. I imagine Sandra or Mavra would have their own spells to cast that would be similar but different. And Molly would make the light disappear in Harry's head as an illusion, not cast a physical myrk that could be cut back with the light of his staff and pendant. That's not her style.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 03:39:30 PM ---So your theory is that a barely trained Molly cast a myrk over a large part of the convention center and a ward that held Harry back together, on her own, for the first time, while watching her friend get attacked by a monster and her other friend died?
Sorry, I don't buy that it was Molly. It's completely against her character to allow people to be killed in front of her, especially since we know she's empathic and tends to feel emotions so deeply. All that terror and death would have torn her up.
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...Actually, no. I'm saying Molly made the myrk specifically to try to protect her friends from the monster and keep it back (it worked, too; Rosie lived). After all, it's the only magic she knows at the time (heck, if you look at it, what she did then and what she did in Cold Days and Changes is pretty much the same). That it also stopped Harry was incidental. Keep in mind, emotions fuel magic; the terror she was feeling is likely the perfect type of emotion to fuel a "keep away from me and my friends!" ward.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 04:15:18 PM ---...Actually, no. I'm saying Molly made the myrk specifically to try to protect her friends from the monster and keep it back (it worked, too; Rosie lived). After all, it's the only magic she knows at the time (heck, if you look at it, what she did then and what she did in Cold Days and Changes is pretty much the same). That it also stopped Harry was incidental. Keep in mind, emotions fuel magic; the terror she was feeling is likely the perfect type of emotion to fuel a "keep away from me and my friends!" ward.
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I don't see where casting a myrk, which is a physical manifestation, and casting an illusion, which is a mental or light manipulation, are teh same thing. I don't see where an amateur spellcaster with no experience or training can cast a physical myrk and a physical ward, especially when their natural talent lies in non-physical magic.
In addition, I've always thought that Molly was busy casting at the time of the attacks. Molly was trying to scare Nelson and Rosie. At the first attack, in the bathroom, we don't know where Molly was. But the second attack, which was the Rosie attack, Molly took off, saying there were things she needed to do. For the third spell, when Harry reversed it back on the caster, there was a delay. He thought it would be sooner, but it took a while. That was because Molly was in the car with Charity and Forthill, driving home. As soon as he got home, the third attack commenced.
I think Molly was casting a spell that focused on her friends, trying to keep up the induced fear in them, so that they wouldn't abuse. The fetches came across from the NN in those places (Nelson in the bathroom; Rosie in the theatre) because they were drawn to the fear spell. For the third attack, they remained at the convention because of the build-up of fear there due to the other attacks and the movies being shown.
If someone else had been casting to bring the fetches across, or even send them, then Harry's spell would have sent the fetches at them, not at Molly.
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