The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Law Talk
vultur:
--- Quote from: Mrmdubois on April 18, 2013, 07:00:38 PM ---The love potion was basically really strong liquor, she even got the hangover! In all seriousness though, what it's described as doing is lowering inhibitions. Which means that anything she did to Harry were things she wanted to do anyway, the potion just made her more likely to act on them. The effects were temporary and incapable of doing long term mental damage.
--- End quote ---
Eh, depends on the situation and the person affected, IMO. I think that sort of thing could do serious damage to certain personalities. Depending on how strong the effect is, of course ... but is Fourth Law violation really a matter of degree/intensity like that?
--- Quote --- Also, keep in mind, Harry never intended to use it, so ideally there would have been no one under its influence, and since potions go stale in a day or so there would have also been no evidence.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but the RPG book explicitly claims it's not a Fourth Law violation.
--- Quote ---The Fear spell Molly used on the other hand was designed with long term effects in mind, indeed as part of her standards for success.
--- End quote ---
Sure, but why does the timescale determine whether it violates free will or not?
--- Quote ---As for the damage done, even just days after casting it Molly's bf developed paranoia and basically started going crazy.
--- End quote ---
Well, sure, I agree it's way more damaging - as I said in the original post.
--- Quote --- He got the soft serve version of Black Court Renfield Creation.
--- End quote ---
Hmm, I really disagree there. Renfield-ization seems to make you a slave to the commands of the Black Court vampire, in addition to shattering the mind totally so you're non-functional even when the Blampire isn't ordering you around.
What Molly did seems to me to be a straightforward intense phobia (that happens to be non-naturally induced) - really nasty, but not the same sort of thing at all.
(Come to think of it, I'm honestly not sure why it was so destructive - one would think that once the fear had driven him to avoid drugs, it wouldn't get "triggered" much anymore.)
--- Quote ---So, love potion, basically a short term suggestion. Fear spell, long term compulsion. Short term suggestion is okay, long term compulsion violates the Law. Which makes sense, enthrallment implies long term servitude.
--- End quote ---
But what about short term compulsions or long term suggestions? Both are totally imaginable ("shoot that guy" vs. long-term induced love or fear. Honestly, I'm not sure how what Molly did qualifies as a compulsion rather than a suggestion, it's entirely emotional and not a "DO this right now", that's my entire question about it.)
blackstaff67:
My only Law question is really 7th Law territory, given that it's not even predicated on casting a spell (though the bullet summary merely says "You've reached for/accepted power from the Outsiders"). Apparently even researching data about the Outsiders (and maybe their weaknesses?) qualifies as a Law Violation severe enough to warrant Warden intervention. Heck, it can be argued that merely possessing the data can warrant a violation.
My question would be at what point you would award/inflict a Lawbreaker stunt? My personal opinion is when you actually use a ritual or magic to gain control or contact them, while mere mundane research (while justifying warden intervention) would NOT call for a Lawbreaker stunt.
Tedronai:
The 7th Law forbids 'seeking beyond', not 'seeking of beyond'.
Mrmdubois:
For the 4th Law I think degree and intensity absolutely matter. It determines if, how much and how long to recover from any mental damage done. A short compulsion/suggestion effect is going to be a lot easier for a mortal to do there thing and rationalize it away.
I agree though that even short lived effects could do some serious damage to the right sorts of people. One of the reasons that even just avoidance suggestions like Harry built fall into a grey enough area for Morgan to bristle.
I think time scale also matters because its the difference between mugging a person at gun point and selling them into slavery. Both are punishable offenses, one is worse than the other though.
The reason I compared the fear spell to a minor version of becoming a Renfield is because of the long term effects. Jason started losing his sanity and could potentially have become a gibbering wreck like a Renfield. Also remember that more than just a fear of drugs had been implanted because Molly was pissed at him, which is why it kept getting set off even after he got out of the drug scene. Plus he was still addicted to drugs, he was also afraid of drugs. This paradox is what broke the minds of Molly's friends, what caused the dissonance in their subconscious, if it could have been rationalized it might have been less damaging. If the effect was less intense, or shorter in duration then it also would have done less damage, and might just fall under the compulsion/suggestion umbrella. Of course to get the results Molly wanted it would have required reapplication, an enough of that could have done the same damage eventually. Who is exactly what Peabody was doing, so maybe on top of intensity, and duration a third factor of frequency should be added.
blackstaff67:
Keep in mind that Harry's "suggestion" spell could be more accurately modeled as a briefly successful Social attack aimed at keeping people away/persuading them not to look closer. Little to do with messing with Free Will.
What Molly did was actually remove long-term Free Will AND make her victims (Cos that's what they were) vulnerable to Phobophages.
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