Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?

[Aminar]

We're not claimig they are underpowered Auspice.
They are very powerful but often functionally useless in comparison to a wizard's offensive options.
If you as a GM have your monsters brainless enough to attack the wizard fine.  But that means your Players are fighting enemies who are stupid.  Turn Based Combat allows people with zero cmombat experience to fight as if they have combat exerience by giving them more time to think.  Your villains, past the very lowest levels of the game, are familiar with combat.  They know how to tell when a wizard puts up a shield if they are supernaturally savvy.  If not they should be early game or a very easy fight.
Don't play your baddies so that they attack the heavily defended wizard.  Your players aren't that dumb.  Ask them.   
By the same logic don't let your Villains be that dumb.

My Players always loved the outwit the GM aspect.  It's part of why they play. Have you ever had the dragons tail get pinned to the floor?  Probably not, but it's a effective and clever stall. 
How about an overwhelming and tactical force scared out of the church by a plague of centipedes by the badly wounded party hiding in a closet. That's what players live for(Or at least the awesome ones.)

As to the 4 or 5 conviction bit. if you go back in the debate you'll see the mention of an enchanted item worth the cost of your shield bracelet that is much better because it's a 3 use no stress shield at that 5 or 6 power.  And it can be used for a mental stress.  And it can be used as a reaction.  Much better than a min power block in every way.  Assuming your Wizard has a half decent Lore Score.

[Auspice]

That's one aspect of it, but what about the group block?  What about the group armor?  What about blocking for somebody else?  Evocation blocking is not really meant to be the main form of defense.  It's meant to be there when you need something powerful right then and there.  Dresden usually puts it up when he has yet to figure out what is going on.  Aside from that he relies on his trench coat and the old-fashioned getting out of the way.

A block preventing the massively strong grendelkin from attacking anyone is effective.
A block keeping the Malks from moving into your zone lets your group pick them off with guns.
A block keeping the enemy spell caster from launching the zone wide fireball is good.

Plus there's always this.

[Mr. Death]

Plus there's always this.

Yup. Speaking of grendelkin, in one of my games, we had a small party fighting one, who had ghouls as its door wardens. While the fighters were in melee, the wizard's main contribution to the fight was to put up and maintain a block on the doorway keeping the Ghouls out long enough for them to bunch up in the hallway...where she could then roast them all wholesale.

[Auspice]

Yup. Speaking of grendelkin, in one of my games, we had a small party fighting one, who had ghouls as its door wardens. While the fighters were in melee, the wizard's main contribution to the fight was to put up and maintain a block on the doorway keeping the Ghouls out long enough for them to bunch up in the hallway...where she could then roast them all wholesale.

Clever.  That's something I had yet to think of... a block used to round things up to be fried.  It's amazing what some of the players have come up with so far.  One character used earth magic to push a warehouse wall down (the building was already damaged), concentrating on tipping it instead of trying to hit the blocking warlock hiding behind it.  He then was subtle enough to use earth magic to soften the mortar on a brick wall for an instant, quiet, breaking and entering.

[noclue]

Wow. Some of you folk must be playing a different game. We've used tons of blocks to great effect. I once put up a block by suspending droplets of vaporized holy water in a room to prevent a group of RCV from attacking us. Another time, my block saved one of our guy's bacon when a sniper opened fire on us. I've used a block to stop a speeding car and fend off a wizard attack. Some of the comments make me think you're actually assuming the enemy knows there's a block there and just avoids it. Why assume that?

[noclue]

This, definitely. Neither side of the conflict is, or should be played as, a single entity all under the direct and omniscient control of a being seeking to exploit every vulnerability the instant it comes in. Both sides of the conflict are filled with individuals who are going to be motivated by things other than a calculation of relative skill rolls and block strength.

So yes, a vampire is going to run smack into a wall of force to try and attack the person behind it. Someone is going to attack the wizard even if he puts up a shield, because the wizard is a major target on his own, whatever else happens.

+1

[Aminar]

Wow. Some of you folk must be playing a different game. We've used tons of blocks to great effect. I once put up a block by suspending droplets of vaporized holy water in a room to prevent a group of RCV from attacking us. Another time, my block saved one of our guy's bacon when a sniper opened fire on us. I've used a block to stop a speeding car and fend off a wizard attack. Some of the comments make me think you're actually assuming the enemy knows there's a block there and just avoids it. Why assume that?

And in those situations you A:  Stopped combat and removed any melee fighters in your party from offensive duty as well as took advantage of a catch to great affect.  In the next two you stopped single entities as reactions to something.  Blocks aren't supposed to work as a reaction and as such work badly for the purpose of defense. I've seen them used to great affect too, but in very specific situations.  As a part of a straight up fight with multiple combatents on each side they are rarely useful.  Trust me, they are rarely worth the resources spent to cast them.(A turn and a spell stress.)(Now, if you make a Block that draws all gunfire to it or a block that the enemy must get by to hurt anybody but doesn't limit the party they can be very useful.  )

The problem is attacking with a Wizard almost always results in something taken out, or at least gives a consequence that limits the usefulness of the target.  A block doesn't do that.

(I would also like to point out I mentioned Blocks that hold off reinforcements and abuse chokepoints as places where they do work.)  Most of what we are debating is that Blocks don't work the way Harry uses them.  Most of this comes down to the fact Harry is alone or blocking the rest of the party in almost every instance he uses his shield.  Thus all the attacks are directed at him.  That is a good use of his block.  In gameplay though, it is far and away less useful because the party is usually 4+ people, many of which need to be up close to do much in combat.  They are almost always a liability unless used in a very specific set of circumstances, and ones that rarely come up because it is rare that the party is on the defensive past the opening scenes of a story.  They are searching, hunting, trying to stop the baddies, etc.  You can only run defend the ritual in place once or twice and even then it takes the best caster out of the fight anyway.

[Auspice]

The problem with this line of thinking is that you are separating Evocation blocks with Evocation.  If we are discussing making Evocation blocks more powerful we are discussing making Evocation more powerful.

Everybody already has their own defense rolls based on Athletics or enchanted items.  Evocation block is a boost for Wizards to keep them alive and add on maneuvers.

Most of what we are debating is that Blocks don't work the way Harry uses them.

Nope, they are MUCH more powerful in this system.  Harry's are usually faced in one direction, he couldn't cast while one was up, he could barely act while one was up, and (before a certain point) they could only guard against kenetic.  All things considered, he didn't use his shield bracelet that much.  He usually dodged.

[Lavecki121]

Why exactly are you saying they don't work as a reaction. That is exactly what they do. You prepare the spell to stop a specific thing from happening so that when it does happen the block goes up. It seems to me you aren't looking at the narrative. When a wizard casts a block first turn it isn't that he puts up a glowing wall around him that everyone can see. He is charging up the spell so that when the trigger happens, he will block it.

[noclue]

And in those situations you A:  Stopped combat and removed any melee fighters in your party from offensive duty as well as took advantage of a catch to great affect. 

I agree on the catch. The other stuff is not the case. Melee fighters were free to melee. In one case they were able to melee without being flanked and surrounded. In other, they were free to melee without getting drilled by a high powered rifle. We had multiple combatants in multiple zones.

In the next two you stopped single entities as reactions to something.  Blocks aren't supposed to work as a reaction and as such work badly for the purpose of defense.

No, I knew the guy was going to try to run us down with his car and I had a powerful block as a rote.

  Most of what we are debating is that Blocks don't work the way Harry uses them.

 
Blocks work the way Harry uses them. That's the way they should be used.

In gameplay though, it is far and away less useful because the party is usually 4+ people, many of which need to be up close to do much in combat. 

I've never thrown a block that blocked my teammates from going where they wanted to go.

They are almost always a liability unless used in a very specific set of circumstances, and ones that rarely come up because it is rare that the party is on the defensive past the opening scenes of a story.

Like I said, different game. We spend as much time fighting off baddies that have us dead to rights as we do chasing them. We've been ambushed by red court vamps, gunned down in a drive by, attacked by wardens using spells, a sniper 5 zones away and a mind controlled NPC with a satchel bomb. I used a horde of pixies to block during that fight.

[Aminar]

Is a horde of pixies an evocation block?

Anyway, If they're working for you great.  I as a GM have never seen them work well in open combat unless placed on a specific enemy as a hold and even then only because the enemy was mortal and the laws put the wizard in a bind.  And My Wizard is probably the smartest player I know.  I called him in to explain relativity to me last night for a writing project actually.

If Blocks had a better duration they would be better.  If they weren't so easy to get around or break they'd be great.  If a Wizard couldn't almost always do more offensively with the stress they'd be useful.  And most importantly if they could be raised as a reaction instead of an action they would be great.
But as it is the wizard almost always has better things to be doing with his stress slots than redirecting fire towards the rest of the party.
A large part of the problem is that in every one of your scenarios something actually hit the block.  A competent and tactically minded force just isn't going to do that because getting a block to be a reasonable obstruction usually makes it not worthwhile.

[Mr. Death]

Not every fight is about blasting the other guy as fast as you can. There are any number of possible scenarios where attacking outright just isn't worth it until there's been time to set things up.

Dresden Files isn't a console RPG where every fight boils down to, "Hit the other guy before he hits you." Good enemies will have goals beyond simple annihilation of the other side, and a good GM will have enemies and scenarios set up so it's not simply a contest of who can make the bigger boom.

And, as stated, a good GM who remembers that DFRPG is as much a roleplaying game as it is a blasting game is going to play those enemies in character, rather than as super-optimized, hyper-competent badasses who can calculate battlefield probability on the fly and change their actions mid-course the instant it's less than optimal for them to keep going.

What it seems to come down to is you saying specific types of evocation blocks don't work with the specific way you and your players play. Which is fine. But that doesn't mean they're bad or underpowered.

[Lavecki121]

Again you are determining before hand that the block is something they can see. An entire round only happens in the span of a minute at the most. there really isnt all that much time to say "Oh that guy is putting up a very clear block i will avoid."

Also, like i just said, you arent looking at it narative you are looking at it cause and effect. Blocks act like prepared actions in DND. You decide what effect it is that you are blocking and if that happens then so does your block.

*Ninja'd

[JDK002]

Again you are determining before hand that the block is something they can see. An entire round only happens in the span of a minute at the most. there really isnt all that much time to say "Oh that guy is putting up a very clear block i will avoid."

Also, like i just said, you arent looking at it narative you are looking at it cause and effect. Blocks act like prepared actions in DND. You decide what effect it is that you are blocking and if that happens then so does your block.

*Ninja'd

The problem with that line of thought is that it goes against the reality of playing the game.  Character narration doesn't change the fact that you as the player or GM does know someone put up a block.  You can try and play to the nature of the character all you want, but what you as a player know can and does color your in-game decisions.

This typically swings in two directions.  A. play as a tactical master because you as a player have knowledge the characters don't.  B. compensate in the opposite direction and serve yourself to the opposition on a platter for the sake of narration.

My experience with most RPG battles is it's either a mook fight where the players can't possibly lose (but may get softened up a bit).  Or it's an insanely tough fight where players just barely pull through (or just lose).

[blackstaff67]

And, as stated, a good GM who remembers that DFRPG is as much a roleplaying game as it is a blasting game is going to play those enemies in character, rather than as super-optimized, hyper-competent badasses who can calculate battlefield probability on the fly and change their actions mid-course the instant it's less than optimal for them to keep going.

What it seems to come down to is you saying specific types of evocation blocks don't work with the specific way you and your players play. Which is fine. But that doesn't mean they're bad or underpowered.

Seconded.  Just how many NPC's know about the occult in general and your wizard in particular?  That's be a heck of a Lore and/or Contacts roll.  Let's assume Johnny Marcone is interested in your Wizard.  He could be reasonably assumed to know what a Wizard (and therefore, YOU) are capable of...but it doesn't necessarily follow that he knows what your fav elements, rote spells or enchanted items are.  Heck, even with his Contacts and Recources, he still got kidnapped by Denarians.  Two:  just because a Wizard used a block doesn't mean 1) everyone knows about it now and 2) knows how to counter it--not unless all the villains suddenly put 3-5 points in Lore.  If said Wizard used the same block over and over for a significant time period, then yeah, some villains could get wise to it and learn to counter it.  Others would simply learn to leave the occult badass alone if they couldn't rustle up some moxie (that they may or may not be able to control--but that's another story).