The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on December 31, 2012, 11:31:56 PM ---sure !
but is fun
Harry makes the disticintion between 'gods' (Mab, Odin) and 'GODS' (the WG, Zeus).. and i very strongly suspect there are also GODS above those.. Ferrovax served something after all, and I dont think its a human god. But in the text at least, mab is very much reffered to as a god. ;D
--- End quote ---
It's fun but it also makes conversations hard to follow. I'm afraid I'll have to :(. I'll also go back and remove all the spoilers from my previous posts.
I can't remember Harry ever calling Mab a god. Could you quote an example? I also don't remember him giving any god in the series a capital G unless they were the White God. I do remember someone talking about "lesser gods" which implies greater gods...Does it say that Ferro serves something? I can't remember. I do remember that Ferro was called a VP of Creation which is the same thing Uriel was called so...that might imply that they're on the same power level. If that is true though than why was he at Biancia's ball? All the other beings on Uriels power level (the mother maybe?) are sort of above things like that.
--- Quote from: vultur on January 01, 2013, 02:09:41 AM ---Odin seems to think the Lords of Outer Night count (or at least used to), and they're just super-powered Rampires. In "Welcome to the Jungle" the Hecatean hag was trying an ascension rite, which would apparently make her something like Hecate. Harry says the Darkhallow would have made a necromancer into a god -- and that's entirely unrelated to worship.
My guess is that a god (lower-case) can start out as anything (human, Rampire, hag, etc.), and then has a big power source/mantle of power/whatever slapped on top.
Tied to the world by mortal knowledge (not necessarily belief), I think.
--- End quote ---
Odin did say that the LOTON had become something "more" than regular rampires. Also recall that whatever was possesing Murphy called them "false gods" so... *shrugs*
I meant to say knowledge. Sorry :-[.
--- Quote from: Orloth on January 01, 2013, 02:34:36 AM ---Thanks for that. You completely missed my point, and helped it along at the same time.
From a limited mortal stand point, there isn't much difference between gods gaining power through mortal knowledge/belief and gods gaining influence over the world through mortal knowledge/belief. But I think you are largely right (or at least Bob might compliment your understanding of it).
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Would you mind telling me what your point was?
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: 123456789blaaa on January 01, 2013, 11:43:53 AM ---It's fun but it also makes conversations hard to follow. I'm afraid I'll have to :(. I'll also go back and remove all the spoilers from my previous posts.
I can't remember Harry ever calling Mab a god. Could you quote an example? I also don't remember him giving any god in the series a capital G unless they were the White God. I do remember someone talking about "lesser gods" which implies greater gods...Does it say that Ferro serves something? I can't remember. I do remember that Ferro was called a VP of Creation which is the same thing Uriel was called so...that might imply that they're on the same power level. If that is true though than why was he at Biancia's ball? All the other beings on Uriels power level (the mother maybe?) are sort of above things like that.
Odin did say that the LOTON had become something "more" than regular rampires. Also recall that whatever was possesing Murphy called them "false gods" so... *shrugs*
I meant to say knowledge. Sorry :-[.
Would you mind telling me what your point was?
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sure, ill tell you when the conversation had, but i dont have the book right now (its on friend loan)
PG, a conversation with Charity, outside the gates of AT. Harry only makes the disticintion between little g god and big god because in deference to charity's religous beliefs.
my point is from Harry's- or annother mortals -pov, a 'god' is any being with sufficient power to wrok miracles on a planetary scale. Mab has that. Harry doesnt distinguish between them (hes religous switzerland) because he has no way to measure them at his scale.
he does say he knows for a fact the classical gods or the hindu gods could kick mabs butt tho.
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on January 01, 2013, 12:37:42 PM ---sure, ill tell you when the conversation had, but i dont have the book right now (its on friend loan)
PG, a conversation with Charity, outside the gates of AT. Harry only makes the disticintion between little g god and big god because in deference to charity's religous beliefs.
my point is from Harry's- or annother mortals -pov, a 'god' is any being with sufficient power to wrok miracles on a planetary scale. Mab has that. Harry doesnt distinguish between them (hes religous switzerland) because he has no way to measure them at his scale.
he does say he knows for a fact the classical gods or the hindu gods could kick mabs butt tho.
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Do you know that from another mortals POV a 'god' is any being with sufficient power to work miracles on a planetary scale? There really hasn't been any discussion in the series about what a "god" exactly is in the Dresdenverse. I think it's premature to paste a definition onto them before we know more. I mean, by your definition Satan is a god!
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: 123456789blaaa on January 01, 2013, 02:00:55 PM ---Do you know that from another mortals POV a 'god' is any being with sufficient power to work miracles on a planetary scale? There really hasn't been any discussion in the series about what a "god" exactly is in the Dresdenverse. I think it's premature to paste a definition onto them before we know more. I mean, by your definition Satan is a god!
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..yup
and your point is?
heck, according to abrahamic mythology, (s)he is. as are half his/her vassals.. the princes of hell are pagan gods of darkness who were thrown down by the 'true god' when they took over as lord of the earth. Set, Ammon, Belial, Asmodeus.. they were all gods once.
youre dealing with two issues here:
in the historical sense, a god is any being that large numbers of people worship or worshipped. Even Uriel recongizes this; he refers to the rampies as 'usurpers' that is people who are pretending to be gods; but doign so implies that the archangel considers the real mayan gods to be real gods.
which has some validity , note the classic 'worship no pother god before me' is essentially the same thing. The original abrahamic religion was polytheistic after all; and the darkness (satan) was very much a god of it.
for the abstract POV If a being shows up who can literaly juggle the himmalays and says its a god, im inclined to not argue too loudly.
Mab qualifies under both catagories.
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on January 01, 2013, 02:32:15 PM ---..yup
and your point is?
heck, according to abrahamic mythology, (s)he is. as are half his/her vassals.. the princes of hell are pagan gods of darkness who were thrown down by the 'true god' when they took over as lord of the earth. Set, Ammon, Belial, Asmodeus.. they were all gods once.
youre dealing with two issues here:
in the historical sense, a god is any being that large numbers of people worship or worshipped. Even Uriel recongizes this; he refers to the rampies as 'usurpers' that is people who are pretending to be gods; but doign so implies that the archangel considers the real mayan gods to be real gods.
which has some validity , note the classic 'worship no pother god before me' is essentially the same thing. The original abrahamic religion was polytheistic after all; and the darkness (satan) was very much a god of it.
for the abstract POV If a being shows up who can literaly juggle the himmalays and says its a god, im inclined to not argue too loudly.
Mab qualifies under both catagories.
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My point Ms.Duck is that we don't know what the criteria for being a god is in the Dresdenverse. Sure a being can say it's a god but is it?
Let's use Neil Gaimans American Gods as an example. In this book "gods" are beings that gain power from belief. A powerfull creature might claim it's a god but since it doesn't get power from belief it is by definition not a god.
I'm not saying that the same is true in the Dresdenverse but the point is that it could be. In the Dresdenverse you may have to meet a certain criteria (power coming from belief or otherwise) before you can be called a "god". The historical perspective is useful as a reference point but no more. Jim changes mythological stuff all the time (I don't remember anything about narcotic saliva or ectoplasmic skin in the Mayan mythos for example).
For an example, remember in Dead Beat when Harry said that Cowl would become a god if he preformed the Darkhallow? Harry didn't say anything about people worshipping Cowl so that's a point against the historical perspective.
If a king in europe claimed he was a lemon and executed anyone who disagreed I wouldn't be inclined to argue loudly. He's still not a lemon.
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