The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
spameroo:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on January 12, 2013, 03:58:13 AM ---
finaly, i think the WK is aware, just at an animal level. the ladies are likely much more ware, then we go up the scale.
--- End quote ---
The Winter Knight is aware. At least as aware as he ever is ;)
I think the portion of Winter granted to Harry when he assumed the mantle of the Winter Knight is the animalistic awareness that was influencing Harry in Cold Days.
The larger portions of Winter's and Summer's essences that we saw entering Molly and Sarissa probably do have more of an intelligence to them, but I think we'd need to know what the ROLES of the Ladies are, to know how much.
Mab's mantle of Defender of the Outer Gates (i.e., The Winter Queen, Queen of Air and Darkness, etc.,) comes with commensurate power to do the job: probably Mab's intelligence was increased phenomenally, as well as her awareness. She may well have intellectus in the vicinity of her realm and/or the Gates. Harry gained it for Demonreach when he inadvertently claimed the mantle of its Warden, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
The Archive is a magical construct. I don't remember if we know Bob's origin, but I always understood him to be a spirit originating in the NN who was at some point pressed into service as a mini-Archive.
I see no reason to think the Fairy Queens or Knights are some sort of programmed, distinct constructs or entities. Maybe what you guys are calling capital-M Mantles of the Queens and Knights are identical in any practical sense to what I am calling the essences of Winter/Summer. If so, the term is referring to something specific to the Faerie courts and their construction.
I just can't see any reason to believe all the cool stuff in the series would turn out to be something as lame as a bunch of preprogrammed magical upgrade kits that get swapped around every Halloween.
Ms Duck:
less 'preprogrammed' and more 'semi self aware learning systems' ..and when you get down to the implicaitons of how Mab's aspect might work, you get something very cool indeed.
one of the classic myths about Mab was she could hear everything said on the wind or in secret; much like the archive in the DF knows everything written down.
now unlike the archive, mab is likely not limited only to what was said in the past or the present, but has some awareness of the possible future... she would be very very scary indeed.
madness:
I am pretty confident, after CD, that whoever is in charge of defending the Outer Gates gets access to a ton of power/abilities/etc. (whether via a mantle or via some other method).
I think that in the Dresdenverse the supernatural powers who are powerful/important enough to know the true nature of the Outer Gates would never think of screwing with Mab (because it is insane, not because she is too powerful for them to destroy). They either help Mab out or else they make sure not to interfere with her duty at the Outer Gates.
The supernatural powers who aren't sufficiently important/ancient/powerful to be aware of the true nature of the Outer Gates simply don't have the ability to seriously threaten Mab.
The Unseelie Accords probably exist to prevent the 'minor' supernatural powers/nations from interfering in the important stuff (the defense of the Outer Gates and the general ruling of reality that the gods tend to be involved in). Making sure that the 'kids' don't accidentally do something stupid and that no single one of them amasses enough power to unbalance things and/or threaten Mab.
My guess is that events like CI and the war against the Black Court are probably examples of the parents stepping in and arranging for one of the kids to get knocked down a peg or two in order to prevent further trouble.
KevinSig:
I just thought of something, that I need to work out when I've got the time, but here goes...
Soul Fire = Death Curse = Mantle
Why? Remember, Harry repeatedly has stated that magic just doesn't go out & do things, and isn't a thinking force. Then look at the effects of the Death Curses we know of. Margaret's went out & attacked the White King is a very creative way, and left a echo of herself in her two sons. Snake Boy's Death Curse followed Harry around & pushed him towards dying alone.
Both effects are much like the works of mantles. Consider how the mantle of the Wild Hunt made the bike into a creature form.
And then consider all the times Harry has employed Soulfire & it has come out in creative ways. Like the giant hand spell & the Artic Fire.
I'd go into more detail, but I haven't the time. However, Serack - I'd like you to consider adding Margaret's Death Curse onto Harry's mantle list. We've seen it push Harry away from actions in Storm Front, and I think it was what linked Harry & Thomas in Blood Rites. I know, most assume there was a communion spell of sorts, but something like a Death Curse effect seems to be more likely. Since, spells can't actually think & all that.
aShorty21:
--- Quote from: spameroo on January 12, 2013, 02:45:00 AM ---A big part of what defines such mantles is the authority and influence they grant the bearers.
This is more true for some than others, of course. For example, the mantle of the Merlin of the White Council grants immense power to the one who wears it. It doesn't, however, as far as we know, grant any magical boost.
--- End quote ---
It seems to me a lot of the disagreements/arguments in this thread are being triggered by a missunderstanding of descriptions/definitions.
Definition 1 (Not unique to the DV): A figurative cloak symbolizing preeminence or authority <accepted the mantle of leadership>
Definition 2 (Unique to the DV): A power/ability obtained (willingly or unwillingly through various means) by an indvidual. Said power/ability may influence the bearer. It may remove options to choice and/or influence the bearer's choice.
Some Mantles being discussed clearly fall into one definition above. Some fall into both. I believe the problem is arising from tring to compare Definition 1 and 2. Let me try to clarify...
So the Merlin example clearly falls into line with the first defintion. As does being the president of a company, or treasurer of a fraternity, or chief of police.
Becoming the Winter Knight falls into line with the second definition. Being the Winter Knight obviously influences Harry.
Becoming the Warden falls into both definitions. Harry has gained responsibility as the Warden, but he also gained access to intellectus of the island.
So I'm saying is; when trying to discuss Mantles, it is ok to compare the responsibilites of being Warden with the responsibilites of being President of the USA. It is also ok to compare the power boost gained from being Winter Knight with the Intellectus gained from the island.
Here is where the Merlin example falls apart. The Merlin of the White Council does have responsibilites and can direct the White Council, but as far as we can tell, there isn't any actual metaphysical power boost. Arther Langtry has just as much magical power as an individual with or without the position of Merlin.
Another way to look at it is this... Think about the types of powers that could be transferred on Halloween. I think we can all realize that just raw magical potential could be transferred (whole or in part) between individuals. If that raw magical potential was tied up with being Santa Claus, then if you get enough of the bits you are essentialy Santa Claus. You are what you eat. The same could not be said of being VP of accounting for Intel. VP of accounting isn't the type of power that can be transfered on Halloween, therefore it falls under Definition 1 and not Definition 2.
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