The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Pancake Universe
knnn:
I've pointed this out before, but one BIG flaw in this argument is that you are assuming "brute force" to destroy things. In fact, using brute force is generally the most inefficient way to destroy things. Consider that nearly every time we've seen how something happens in the DV, it's always using the right leverage.
- Think about how much gravity Harry would need to generate to cause a building to fall down -- It's immense (you need to at least double the gravity of the Earth. That's 10^26 right there). So of course, he doesn't create the Gravity from scratch. Instead he moves it around, concentrating it. What's that? Can't be done using normal physics. Magic.
- Similarly think of Tunguska. The amount of energy released was immense. Megaton bomb level. This doesn't however mean that Ebenezer has "nuclear bomb level power". All Ebenezer really needed to do was to nudge an asteroid a little out of its path-- similar to Casaverde. Ditto for Krakatoa - there's already pressure there, you merely need to encourage it a bit.
- Think of all the times Harry moves energy around -- he's a fulcrum, not a power source. Why are you assuming that Mab is any different.
"Mab can create a hurricane". Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect? Mab is nigh-omniscient. Surely she knows where exactly she needs to flap her wings.
- Ditto about "destroying planets". Archimedes once said "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth." Does this mean he was more powerful than Mab? Of course not, it means that he knew how to use leverage (literally). Destroying a planet is actually relatively easy, especially if you got tons of magic tricks to get around the pesky Physics, and doubly so if you've got the power to totally ignore (WoJ that powerful beings can remake reality around them). Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot. Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole. Poof to the planet.
- Heck, why go with small stuff. What if an archangel simply has the power to change one of the constants of the universe? Negate the Strong Force for a split second, and all your atoms split up into component part. Poof to Universe. No need to brute force it. That's without resorting into clever magic backdoors.
-----
Basically, measuring the power of someone by the stuff they can destroy and then assuming they must have used brute force and strictly "real world physics" to do it is at best a flawed overestimate.
madness:
You do have to start somewhere though.
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: knnn on December 13, 2012, 02:23:45 AM ---I've pointed this out before, but one BIG flaw in this argument is that you are assuming "brute force" to destroy things. In fact, using brute force is generally the most inefficient way to destroy things. Consider that nearly every time we've seen how something happens in the DV, it's always using the right leverage.
- Think about how much gravity Harry would need to generate to cause a building to fall down -- It's immense (you need to at least double the gravity of the Earth. That's 10^26 right there). So of course, he doesn't create the Gravity from scratch. Instead he moves it around, concentrating it. What's that? Can't be done using normal physics. Magic.
- Similarly think of Tunguska. The amount of energy released was immense. Megaton bomb level. This doesn't however mean that Ebenezer has "nuclear bomb level power". All Ebenezer really needed to do was to nudge an asteroid a little out of its path-- similar to Casaverde. Ditto for Krakatoa - there's already pressure there, you merely need to encourage it a bit.
- Think of all the times Harry moves energy around -- he's a fulcrum, not a power source. Why are you assuming that Mab is any different.
"Mab can create a hurricane". Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect? Mab is nigh-omniscient. Surely she knows where exactly she needs to flap her wings.
- Ditto about "destroying planets". Archimedes once said "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth." Does this mean he was more powerful than Mab? Of course not, it means that he knew how to use leverage (literally). Destroying a planet is actually relatively easy, especially if you got tons of magic tricks to get around the pesky Physics, and doubly so if you've got the power to totally ignore (WoJ that powerful beings can remake reality around them). Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot. Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole. Poof to the planet.
- Heck, why go with small stuff. What if an archangel simply has the power to change one of the constants of the universe? Negate the Strong Force for a split second, and all your atoms split up into component part. Poof to Universe. No need to brute force it. That's without resorting into clever magic backdoors.
-----
Basically, measuring the power of someone by the stuff they can destroy and then assuming they must have used brute force and strictly "real world physics" to do it is at best a flawed overestimate.
--- End quote ---
the power level for harry is equivalent to an artillery shell. im moderatley confident he can do that.
I dont remeber what i based eb on, but its simmilar... it may be based on a small earthquake, which he has caused, without dropping rocks. On the list of major disasters he caused was an earthquake in the midwest.
and no ammount of butterfly farts can make a blizzard in chciago in the summer. its simply impossible. you have to change the temperature of an enormous amount of air- and hold it against pressure forces- for months from the description. ill say it again, the figure for Mab is on the low side. its very conservative.
a domino type chaos effect assumes that the forces already exist, but are kept in balance by opposing forces. for example, planting the small explosive that triggers the collapse that causes the volcano. In the case of the blizzard in chicago, there are no such forces present. you cant cause a blizzard in summer by leaving your refrigerator door open. its simply far too much energy required.
to put it in persepective, It doesnt matter how many dominoes you have lined up. the last one will not topple over the great pyramid..much less lift it 10,000 feet in the air and hold it here, which is what Mab did.
Ms Duck:
Ok, lets recalulate what Mab did another way:
Ye old:
PV/(nr)=T
Now P in this case has to be mainatined constant by soem force, or the cold air will simply draw in warm air and the effect will be spread all over the conintent instead of focused on chicago. as the volume is constant ( the air over the state) we can roughly assume Mab is , in effect, adding mass.
Mab can do this by moving 'potential mass' aka ectoplasm from the NN to earth and holding it stable. so, how much does she have to add?
well looking at the temperatures averages for chicago, she has to change it by about -28 c.
hmm, not too bad, right?
average pressure is 768.9 mm.. not too bad
volume of the air over chicago is..er.. lets see, the metro area is around 28,000 KM^2, and air depth is around 8.5 Km, giving us a box of around 238,000 cubic KM
giving us a constant of around 182,998,200
( i think, its been a long time since ive done this sort of stuff)
ok, divide that by our degree of change and solve for..6,535,600 grams of matter created. and held stable. for months.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehgawd. and thats the easy way, assuming you can move matter from the NN.
as an alternative, take that volume of air in KM^3, multiply by the known mass of air at 20c, then caluclate it in grams. assume 1 joule of energy for each gram of air.. per degree ( 28).
uuuughhh thats worse.
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote ---Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot. Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole. Poof to the planet.
--- End quote ---
Wait, really? :o
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