The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Pancake Universe
taishojojo:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on December 17, 2012, 07:11:17 PM ---I love planetary, bit im pretty sure the idea predates both. One thing about Warren Ellis and Jim Butcher is both of them are very good at giving fresh spins to old tropes.
robert heinlien was playing with this one back in the 60s, and im pretty sure he didnt invent it either.
;D
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I was being cheeky... :P
Douglas Adams touched on it a little with Earth being a monster supercomputer.
One of my personal (and favorite) wags is Harry being Job, the subject of a cosmic bet betwixt "gods" (as it were).
Its probably too cerebral and over-thought if the DV were one 'slice' or instance in a cosmic parallel/quantum computer and Harry was some pivotal q-bit (a bet amongst super beings); where Harry's quantum state 'flipping' some way means a 'good', 'bad', 'better', 'worst' outcome.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on December 17, 2012, 07:53:09 PM ---i suspect the outsiders are something like a divine virus, spreading from and consuming worlds.
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*cough*CodexAlera*cough*
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 17, 2012, 07:48:21 PM ---Harry's assertion in CD that all Outsiders are really acting in concert sort of pulls away from that, though. (Though I am not at all sure where Harry gets that idea from or how reliable it is; could equally well be his general conspiracy-theorist tendencies looking for another Theory Of Everything now that the "Black Council" being behind everything is scuppered.)
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Given no space and no time, there is only Here and Now. If there is only Here and Now, if there is action (as we see in the attack on the Outer Gates), it implies purpose, and for there to be Purpose, there must also be consensus. Even if there are others who don't agree with the consensus, they probably don't oppose it, but rather, ignore us altogether.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: wyltok on December 17, 2012, 08:24:46 PM ---Given no space and no time, there is only Here and Now.
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In incline to read Mother Summer at the Gates as saying that Winter holds this duty in this age of the world, as it were, but that there have been other before; that and Rashid appearing to talk to Harry in a manner consistent with being linearly timebound to their previous conversations appear to me rule out the no-space-and-time posit on the Outside.
--- Quote --- If there is only Here and Now, if there is action (as we see in the attack on the Outer Gates), it implies purpose,
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Not following your logic here either; does a spinal reflex pulling away from a flame imply purpose ?
--- Quote ---and for there to be Purpose, there must also be consensus.
--- End quote ---
On largest-scale goal, perhaps, but on strategy, and smaller goals along the way ?
Ms Duck:
that and it seems clear to me the higher level outsiders, at least, are cpable of planning.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 17, 2012, 08:37:14 PM ---In incline to read Mother Summer at the Gates as saying that Winter holds this duty in this age of the world, as it were, but that there have been other before; that and Rashid appearing to talk to Harry in a manner consistent with being linearly timebound to their previous conversations appear to me rule out the no-space-and-time posit on the Outside.
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I don't believe that the area outside the Gates is truly Outside, nor truly part of the Never Never. Rather (in my opinion) it's an in-between place like Chicago-ove-Chicago or the Valley of the Stone Table. I agree with you that time and distance appear to be nice and stable there, which is probably something the Gates are designed to accomplish so that the defenders are actually capable of defending instead of succumbing to madness trying to navigate the Non-Eucledian Landscape (TVTropes Warning).
--- Quote from: wyltok on December 17, 2012, 08:24:46 PM ---If there is only Here and Now, if there is action (as we see in the attack on the Outer Gates), it implies purpose, and for there to be Purpose, there must also be consensus.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 17, 2012, 08:37:14 PM ---Not following your logic here either; does a spinal reflex pulling away from a flame imply purpose ?
--- End quote ---
Apologies for using anthropomorphic speech. They should have sent a poet, but alas, I'm but an engineer. What I mean by purpose does not necessarily imply that there is sentience or reason behind it. Your quote above is a clear example of purpose without reason (namely, evolution). Another classic example is a bubble's circular shape (with the purpose being that nature tends toward the lowest energy state possible, no sentience required). I suppose I could have used "reason" instead of "purpose", but that word is even more correlated in my mind with sentience, so I stuck with purpose.
In any case: try to picture a situation where secrets are impossible. Where your very name reveals every aspect of your being. Where it is impossible to go into the corner and work out an alliance with a few; where everyone hears everything you have to say in favor of some action, and has already heard it all before, so you are incapable of changing his mind, and you know you are incapable of changing his mind, because he has no secrets from you, either. There are but two possibilities I can envision: total chaos, as that only available instant of indecision becomes permanent, due to lack of advancing time. Or unity of purpose, as some sort of consensus is reached that has always been reached and will have always been reached (again, when I use the word "purpose" here, I don't imply all the beings on the Outside are sentient, held a vote, and reached a decision, so much as they all obey the same rules of nature, as it were).
I propose that the beings of chaos of the Outside, when they enter into the non-chaos of our reality, becomes somewhat like Harry's description of goblins in Changes: all different, yet curiously similar. And that's why they all seem to act toward a single purpose: it's not so much a choice they made, as an inevitable rule of their nature.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 17, 2012, 08:37:14 PM ---On largest-scale goal, perhaps, but on strategy, and smaller goals along the way?
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That is certainly an interesting question: are all those infected by Nemesis connected? Did He Who Walks Before recognize Harry as He Who Walks Behind did back in Blood Rites?
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