The Dresden Files > CD Book Club

Cold Days Book Club - Chapters 45-53 **MAJOR SPOILERS**

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Lamarquise:
Frankly, I've got some serious reservations about this whole idea of "mantles" and what's happened both to Harry and now to Molly. And frankly, I'm sick of fairy shenanigans and politics; they never interested me in the first place because there's nothing about them to connect with.

When Harry faced that choice in Changes, Butcher painted himself into a corner. The way he'd always portrayed the Sidhe, they were always beautiful, always completely amoral, and always soulless. If Harry agreed to become Winter Knight, he would have no choice in what he became; he had made his choice and anything Mab wanted him to do, he consented to do. So Butcher had two options: 1.) somehow let Harry out of the agreement on a technicality or contrive circumstances under which Mab would let him out of the deal in very short order or 2.) let Harry remain Winter Knight and become a monster. He tried to take approach 3.) try to make out that the mantle of Winter Knight "isn't so bad" and Harry doesn't really change so significantly. (Or will somehow get out of the mantle before he does.)

With all due respect, that's every bit as much a cop out as option 1 or 3. Harry agreed to anything Mab wanted. Anything. She might let him make petty decisions just because it's pointless to make every choice for him, but the only way that oath means anything is if Harry really does have to do anything Mab wishes. The vast majority of the Sidhe we've ever seen in canon were not just amoral but absolutely and completely and diabolically evil. They had interests and could even be cooperative given adequate incentives, but they cared only about power and pleasure. The only possible exceptions--and there's no way to assess to what extent they are exceptions--were on the Summer side of the fence, which Harry and Molly aren't. If you try to make being the Winter Knight not so bad, then you have to artificially rein in the evilness going on in the Winter Court (which is ridiculous) and downplay the seriousness of the decision Harry made. He gave himself up to Mab. He's her creature, body and soul. Yet somehow she'll tolerate him laying down the law about what he will and won't do and to whom? And she's just going to happen to never order him to do anything evil with all his power and ingenuity while he's in her service? And it just so happens that circumstances arrange themselves so that he doesn't have to do evil while he's in her service? Totally implausible. And I'd cry foul if Uriel or someone else were orchestrating things behind the scenes to arrange that because Harry has his autonomy and it's not for archangels or even the Almighty himself to intervene and manipulate the consequences of human choices after the fact or they're playing favorites and the choices people are given really aren't meaningful.

Sometimes, the most important choices we make in life aren't made in the way or when we thought. We do one stupid thing and then we find things going further and we're bound into the consequences of those earlier decisions.

But there's another big issue. I can buy the Knight of one of the faerie courts being human because he's granted power by the Sidhe and is beholden to them, but he's also their mortal champion and not technically (apparently) a faerie. But a human girl becoming Winter Lady? Mab's daughter and heir presumptive? Everything before has indicated that the Fae are fundamentally different from mortals and the role of one of the queens of each court can only devolve on a faerie or one of faerie lineage who chooses to renounce all other lineage and prerogatives. (Molly doesn't seem to be in that camp at all.) The way a queen's power passes--apparently without requiring consent--is just plain indefensible and horrifying on every level unless the candidate never starts off with a soul in the first place and wouldn't have to choose to be divested of a soul. And if consent is required? Then Molly's position is the more horrifying because she has just chosen to give up her soul--and on an even bigger scale than Harry, who at least remains mortal. Either way, are people actually okay with Molly becoming a faerie? I know I'm not. I think it's the worst thing that could happen to her, worse than death, because she becomes inhuman. And how? Associating with Lea? None of that makes any sense, and one would think that if anything Molly was doing was going to put her in this kind of situation, she or someone else would know. And seriously? She's heir apparent to Mab, but she could somehow get out of it? She and Harry can make irrevocable decisions but still get out of them? (I call shenanigans.) It's not that I want Molly to become like Mab, but if she doesn't become this conscienceless, soulless force of nature, then everything we've seen of the fae up to now is inconsistent and like a dog-and-pony show more than a reality. Not to mention that any fae has no room for loyalty to God as they're bound by the will of their superiors in the court, so becoming Winter Lady puts Molly squarely outside of any hope of salvation as far as the Church is concerned. Molly's parents and siblings would certainly think of it that way. Michael and Charity's reaction to this is nothing to titter or giggle about. Given their beliefs, they are losing their daughter in a way, and with a permanency, even death couldn't take her from them. Maybe most people don't think of salvation or damnation as realities, but devout Christians most certainly do. And anyone who drew their child into such a fate would not only be persona non grata, but a mortal enemy and certainly nobody they'd allow around any child they were entrusted with. Nothing in the world could ever make up for losing every eternal hope for your child.

(Though I think Butcher took Molly beyond the pale when she used magic to commit murder and if this is what Butcher does to characters I've invested in and cared about, making them dark, twisted shadows of themselves, I don't want to read any more. I believe in redemption, but I also believe these characters know a hell of a lot better than to do what they're doing and when you have that level of moral knowledge and power and commit the most heinous sins out there like murder anyway with that power, you may well, indeed, put yourself beyond the possibility of redemption. You're mocking mercy and the power of redemption and, indeed, spitting in their faces.)

In any case, as far as I'm concerned it's no fun to read if stuff like this is going to be happening. Am I crazy, or am I right to be wondering if Butcher has really jumped the shark here starting with Changes?

OZ:
I don't feel like taking the time to address every issue that you've brought up here but let me talk to a few of them.

As far as Jim painting himself into a corner, from everything that I've heard or read he has the major points in this series set from the beginning. If you don't like something that he's done, that's your opinion and your right but it's not because he put himself into a position that he couldn't escape.

As far as Harry's autonomy goes, Mab has desired Harry for the Winter Knight for a long time. We don't know all the reasons yet but whatever they are, they are important enough that she needs Harry not the mindless automaton that he would become if she took away his free will. It's not that she can't take his free will but that she would be shooting herself in the foot if she did. This has been obvious for a long time and is no last minute surprise or cheap out that Jim has created.

Molly is a completely different story. I can't comment much on Molly yet because we just don't know enough about Molly's situation yet. Her change happened at the very end of the book and we have yet to see all the ramifications. How did she become Winter Lady without Fae blood? Does this change how she is affected by the mantle? Jim has made it clear that taking up a Fae mantle does not mean automatically losing your soul. It just makes it extremely difficult to hold on to your soul. Remember that Uriel is all about free will. If gaining a mantle meant the automatic loss of your soul, I don't believe that he would stand idly by and let Mab steal Molly's free will and Molly's soul without interfering. There is a lot left to be seen about Molly's situation but nothing that would make me give up on her.

phoenixjustice:

--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 03, 2013, 06:46:09 PM ---3. He Who Walked Before. I mean Walkers should be three most powerful Outsiders with access to Nevernever and Mortal World. I'm not impressed.

--- End quote ---

Walkers are Knights of the Old Ones--they're not the most powerful beings out there. They protect the most powerful ones.

Lamarquise:
If Mab wants Harry’s creativity, his insights, his best efforts, logically, she’s got it. All she has to do is order him to use his full abilities and he’s bound to. That’s what Harry agreed to. Which is why it’s absurd to me for Harry to be anything more than Mab’s puppet whenever she wants anything. In this way, yes, I think Butcher has written himself into a corner in the way he’s presented things. The only way to "get out" is to take shortcuts with the thematic content or even just the intellectual consistency of the books.

redwizard:

--- Quote from: Lamarquise on April 30, 2013, 06:26:13 AM ---If Mab wants Harry’s creativity, his insights, his best efforts, logically, she’s got it. All she has to do is order him to use his full abilities and he’s bound to. That’s what Harry agreed to. Which is why it’s absurd to me for Harry to be anything more than Mab’s puppet whenever she wants anything. In this way, yes, I think Butcher has written himself into a corner in the way he’s presented things. The only way to "get out" is to take shortcuts with the thematic content or even just the intellectual consistency of the books.

--- End quote ---

You seem to be arguing Harry has lost free will completely by becoming the WK. He hasn't, Uriel said as much at the end of GS, and Harry told Mab to tell him what she wants done and then get out of his way and let him do it. Harry is bound to Mab, but not her mindless slave. He can choose to ignore Mab, but would have to pay the piper for that choice, demonstrated in CD when he wanted to ignore the rules for prisoners with Lacuna.

Going back to the end of GS, Harry told Mab if she did turn him into her puppet then he would be a medicore knight because she would have to be a puppet master and pull the strings everytime she wanted something done. Actually I don't think he's written himself into a corner at all. It is the results of those choices that is one of the foundations of the entire series, and for Harry to have made any other choice would have backed the whole thing into a corner. In fact it was the best choice he could have made given the circumstances, anything else would have destroyed him either emotionally or physically. Sure he could have pulled a darkhallow, but I don't think he would have gotten it off, Murphy or the wardens would have stopped him. Taking up Laciel's coin wouldn't have worked, it wouldn't have given him nearly enough power quickly enough to do any good come midnight boom he would have been dead.

As far as Molly, well Mab was human once, and I think at some point along the line Molly learned enough to make her own choice. She didn't have to go to DR at the end of CD, or enter the circle. She could have stayed on the mainland or even the boat and been unaffected. I think she knew exactly what could happen when she entered the circle. And Mab only had her prepared to take a mantle as a back up. Sarissa was the one who was supposed to be the new WL. 

Her being a powerful magic user closely associated with the sidhe facilitated that. I think either Lea or Mab said something about that at the end of CD.

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