Author Topic: Water Evocator Question  (Read 4905 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 04:28:18 PM »
I don't think anything's codified or anything, but there do seem to be techniques that Aang does with the staff that he can't without it (flying, for a start, certain blocks, and larger, sweeping attacks), and the Earthbender uses them directly to summon and launch rocks, so they might work as foci in the say of opening up the bender to different techniques (like rote spells).

Really, though, the variety of abilities in Bending could be represented by a number of different powers--a beginning Bender might have a reflavored Breath Attack and little else. More proficient bending might be some mix of channeling and evocation, maybe without the focus slots coming as a package deal, but instead being an option for later on, a la Refinement. A Master would have the reflavored Evocation with several specialties, and refinements to boost their power.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 08:24:18 PM »
I dunno, it'd kinda bug me if novices could bend all day while masters had hard limits on their stamina.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 08:47:32 PM »
I dunno, it'd kinda bug me if novices could bend all day while masters had hard limits on their stamina.
True, I hadn't considered that.

One other thing I thought of was, you could make it a system where an attack below a certain threshold (say, half of their Conviction rounded down) didn't use up a mental stress. Bending is the only attack style for many of the characters, and they seem able to keep it up for a long, long time (far more than four actions to a fight), but if they have to really exert themselves, they get tired out faster.

I did something similar when I ran a MMX RPG a while back. Busters were Weapon:2 standard, and could charge safely (no stress) up to the character's Energy stat by not firing for a turn and declaring they were charging. If they wanted to charge further than that, they had to roll Energy to control it and risk stress on a blown roll.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 08:51:16 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 08:58:35 PM »
That could work. But it seems like a lot of effort to write, I'd rather just use Incite Effect or something like it.

Offline Chao

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 05:08:45 PM »
haha, perhaps I should clarify. I don't particularly care about simulating water bending from the tv series. It is more the questions about water evocation in general. How do you justify to a munchkin player that a water attack should not leave a "drenched" aspect? Or that a freezing evocation should not be able to freeze both target and leave the floor slick?

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 05:13:53 PM »
haha, perhaps I should clarify. I don't particularly care about simulating water bending from the tv series. It is more the questions about water evocation in general. How do you justify to a munchkin player that a water attack should not leave a "drenched" aspect? Or that a freezing evocation should not be able to freeze both target and leave the floor slick?
By telling him those are the rules. He doesn't get a bunch of extra effects for the same amount of power and ability of another spell unless he wants to spend a fate point to invoke the aspects of the spell.

You know, that gives me an idea for salvaging blown spells...like if you're fighting a Black Court Vampire, miss with a fire spell, then spend a fate point to declare it sets the scene on fire as a compel against the vampire.
Compels solve everything!

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 05:25:40 PM »
Are you wearing pants?

Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...

But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 05:30:48 PM »
Are you wearing pants?

Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...

But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.
No, but the element of a given spell is. If the player can have the Fire aspect of a missed (or even successful) spell compelled against him to set the building on fire, I don't see why the player can't invoke that same aspect to his advantage.
Compels solve everything!

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Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 05:35:21 PM »
As others mentioned maybe the target dodged the actual water and got injured by something else is one way to handle it.

Another way is to say that since it's conjured water it disappears immediately after the attack as it turns back to ectoplasm. 

If he wants water that sticks around longer he could manipulate water in the atmosphere, but that's a maneuver so he can't do any actual damage on that turn, afterwards sure.

Since it's a maneuver that means 3 shifts of power minimum against one target.  Against the floor that's a maneuver on the zone, so minimum of 5 shifts.  If someone manages to dodge and get out of the zone then he's not going to be affected by whatever goes down in the zone he left.  If he doesn't get out of the zone then he's a valid target for whatever is done with the water in the zone next.

If your player wants to freeze a target and make the floor slick, then that's two maneuvers I think, so minimum of 6 shifts.  Think of it like this, the water is on two targets, the floor and the enemy.  He can do both, but due to the mobility of the enemy it's going to take more power and concentration.

I don't know how other people feel about it, but if you really feel you can't justify not leaving aspects on a target hit with a water attack then just up the power cost of the attack, however many shifts of power are put into the attack, and at least 3 shifts for the maneuver that leaves the aspect.  Really you're probably not supposed to be able to maneuver and attack at the same time, but if you keep upping power costs so he risks backlash, fallout or consequences it should balance out.  I'm not saying punish the player for being creative, but you can totally point out that he's trying to concentrate on doing multiple things at once while he plays Xanatos Speed Chess on the battlefield.

You could also charge shifts for duration (i.e. the water sticking around), and probably should.

I know someone raised the point that conjured fire sticks around and acts just like normal fire after it's been conjured.  I would like to point out the difference between conjured water and conjured fire.  Conjured fire burns stuff, this generates real fires because of heat and combustion principles.  The conjured fire probably goes away almost immediately and leaves vanilla fire, fire makes more fire.  Water on the other hand is conjured matter instead of energy the way it's being talked about here, so it's more likely to turn to ectoplasm and simply evaporate after an attack before it can be used for anything else.  If it's been obtained via a maneuver (sucking moisture out of the atmosphere) which is a turn in itself it's not likely to stick around and behave exactly like normal water.  If it's been obtained via the conjuration method then it's probably going to require shifts in duration for it to stick around long enough to affect subsequent turns.

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 05:37:10 PM »
Are you wearing pants?

Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...

But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.

This makes me want an apparelmancer.

Offline Taran

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2012, 05:55:59 PM »
By telling him those are the rules. He doesn't get a bunch of extra effects for the same amount of power and ability of another spell unless he wants to spend a fate point to invoke the aspects of the spell.

You know, that gives me an idea for salvaging blown spells...like if you're fighting a Black Court Vampire, miss with a fire spell, then spend a fate point to declare it sets the scene on fire as a compel against the vampire.

Maybe I've been doing declarations wrong.  If the wizard shoots a geyser of water out of his hands and hits (or misses), can't he make a valid declaration?  "There's a puddle on the ground" or "soaking wet pants" on his enemy (which the enemy gets to oppose unless you spend a FP).

So in a sense, the guy CAN attack and put an aspect on the scene/enemy.  He just has to make a declaration for it which is another skill role or the use of a FP.  Unless I'm doing things wrong...

Also, I don't like the idea of water being conjured ectoplasm.  You can't conjure with evocation. As far as I knew that was the realm of thaumaturgy.  You're shooting people with water, not ectoplasm that feels like water.  You're pulling the water from the environment -  Whether that's from pipes, a stream or the water in the air.  In my opinion, backlash from a water spell would cause wood frames to shrink and crack because you've pulled all the moisture from them.  Possibly, weakening the structural integrety of some buildings.

Edit:  also remember, that once those scene aspects are around ANYONE can use them.  So if he wants there to be a slick peice of ice on the ground, have your enemies tag those aspects against his allies, or if he's in the same zone, compel him to slip and fall or lose his spell...
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 05:59:38 PM by Taran »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 06:02:14 PM »
Maybe I've been doing declarations wrong.  If the wizard shoots a geyser of water out of his hands and hits (or misses), can't he make a valid declaration?  "There's a puddle on the ground" or "soaking wet pants" on his enemy (which the enemy gets to oppose unless you spend a FP).

So in a sense, the guy CAN attack and put an aspect on the scene/enemy.  He just has to make a declaration for it which is another skill role or the use of a FP.  Unless I'm doing things wrong...
Yes, with a declaration (which I think I said in the first place), but not as an automatic, expected part of the initial action. The GM has the authority to arbitrate the declaration as well, and personally, I would make the player spend a fate point to gain an advantage from an action that failed on the roll.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

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Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2012, 06:06:08 PM »
That makes sense.  Didn't even think of using Declarations.

Also it answers the water as conjured problem if you want to keep that in the realm of thaumaturgy.  Harry does say that he conjures fire though, of course that could just be the vernacular rather than the technical term.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 06:08:04 PM by Mrmdubois »

Offline Taran

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2012, 06:07:23 PM »
Yes, with a declaration (which I think I said in the first place), but not as an automatic, expected part of the initial action. The GM has the authority to arbitrate the declaration as well, and personally, I would make the player spend a fate point to gain an advantage from an action that failed on the roll.

Right.  You did mention it, sorry.

Are you wearing pants?

Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...

But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.

If you've read the depantsing thread, you'd know that only works in social combat ;D

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Water Evocator Question
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2012, 06:13:56 PM »
If you've read the depantsing thread, you'd know that only works in social combat ;D
This thread's about to go to a weird place, isn't it?
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast