The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Sheaman3773 on September 17, 2012, 04:28:36 PM ---How about because (when he's the Bob we all know and love) he hates being like that, so he was glad that Harry wouldn't be asking him to keep flipping back and forth in order to plumb that side of him for knowledge?
--- End quote ---
It's already clear that Harry won't be doing that before harry gives him the specific command to have those memories sleep with the fishes, though.
--- Quote --- To me, it seems like an order, once given to Bob, is permanent, with the exception that future orders can counter previous ones. So if he was so ordered, then it would take an order from a future master to overrule it, potentially giving Bob a much longer period of time before the memories arise again.
--- End quote ---
Except that it took very specific and direct orders from Harry to bring those memories out in the first place. They're not something it appears that Bob does not have under control or has to worry about slipping out in the general run of things.
--- Quote ---The difference between Free Will and just Will seem somewhat ambiguous, though. We know that Bob does have Will, just not Free Will. So with the understanding that whomever holds the skull controls Bob, once the skull is put down, who's to say that Bob cannot use Will to pick between two equally valid owners? Cowl did hold him last, but Harry was closer and actively seeking to reconnect their bond.
--- End quote ---
That model also works, I'm not arguing against that. I am arguing that a) it is not the only model that works, and b) precisely how non-free will works and what Bob has in that context is really pretty murky sfaict so i am reluctant to base arguments too strongly on it.
--- Quote ---How could he fake any of it? If he cut off all of his relevant memories, then he wouldn't have anything with which to fake.
--- End quote ---
He's very intelligent, knows a great deal about magic theory in general, and, depending on when Cowl asks him what, could well have any information he can gain from watching Grevane perform the Darkhallow to call on. Even without that last, it does not stretch my suspension of disbelief that Bob would be smart enough to make up a plausible means for the Darkhallow out of whole cloth.
--- Quote --- More to the point, why would he even want to fake it, given that that would be disobeying his master, the one who was holding his skull?
--- End quote ---
We know that becoming Bob's master is not just simply an issue of whoever last handled the skull; otherwise, there would have been issues with Murphy in "Something Borrowed". I do not believe Cowl is ever Bob's master; every other change of master that happens to Bob occurs when the previous master is dead, and I can totally believe Bob still being bound to Harry and faking it for Cowl.
--- Quote ---What was your theory for why he didn't just take Bob right then?
--- End quote ---
In GP ?
if you think Cowl actually wants to carry out the Darkhallow, well, it takes a lot of preparation. It needs the Erlking book to be found, it needs the exhibition of ancient Native American stuff that Corpsetaker is preparing in the guise of Bartleby as a source of ancient zombies, it needs the boundary between Earth and the NN to be ripped up by the tormented ghost stuff in GP. (Which, come to think of it, indicates that somebody might well have been working in Darkhallow prep prior to GP; the tormented-ghosts plan is kind of overengineered for merely getting Bianca's revenge on Harry, it has a very specific side-effect of ripping up the boundary, and mavra is right there as a suspect.) Cowl expresses active disdain for Kemmler and the Kemmlerites, and what we see of him elsewhere has no necromancy involved, so I can believe he has no real need of Bob until his plan is ready.
If, like me, you believe that Cowl and probably Mavra played the entirety of DB primarily to have the White Council take on Grevane and Corpsetaker and secondarily to mislead the Red Court into thinking they were about to have a necrogod ally, therefore over-reaching by trespassing on Faerie under the impression they were about to obliterate the White Council, and ensuingly getting the living daylights kicked out of them by Summer in PG, then Cowl leaving Bob with Harry makes even more sense as not tipping his hand and leaving all the pieces in the right place.
I'd also note that one consequence of the "Cowl was associated with the Justin/Maggie/Lord Raith cabal" notion is that it could mean Cowl has known where Bob is all along; first through knowing Justin had him, and then through knowing Harry had survived and the Council had not destroyed Bob. (From what Luccio says about Bob in SmF, finding he had survived Kemmler's defeat after all would have been major news in the Council, so the lack of that news when Justin dies would tell Cowl someone else had retrieved Bob, and Harry's the logical prime suspect.)
Sheaman3773:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---It's already clear that Harry won't be doing that before harry gives him the specific command to have those memories sleep with the fishes, though.
--- End quote ---
Because nobody likes having a solid reason and confirmation that they won't have to do something that they are afraid to do?
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---Except that it took very specific and direct orders from Harry to bring those memories out in the first place. They're not something it appears that Bob does not have under control or has to worry about slipping out in the general run of things.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but presumably Harry has never told Bob "tell me everything that you can think of that could bring me more power" or "what do you know that would let me be powerful quickly?" I doubt that the black hats and psychopaths that Bob typically works for would let that possibility pass them by. And if you were going to ask why it hasn't happened before, then, I would respond that Justin was the only person who held Bob since Kemmler's final death, and presumably he had other plans for power, ones that involved Outsiders instead.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---That model also works, I'm not arguing against that. I am arguing that a) it is not the only model that works, and b) precisely how non-free will works and what Bob has in that context is really pretty murky sfaict so i am reluctant to base arguments too strongly on it.
--- End quote ---
Ah, I see. So what do you see as significant or long-term differences between our theories? If your answer is nothing, then I would suggest we drop this line of discussion.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---He's very intelligent, knows a great deal about magic theory in general, and, depending on when Cowl asks him what, could well have any information he can gain from watching Grevane perform the Darkhallow to call on. Even without that last, it does not stretch my suspension of disbelief that Bob would be smart enough to make up a plausible means for the Darkhallow out of whole cloth.
--- End quote ---
So then, when Bob told Harry in the beginning that without those memories he wouldn't be able to help Harry at all, why didn't he start spitting out theories right then? Or a few minutes later, after he had recovered some equilibrium?
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---We know that becoming Bob's master is not just simply an issue of whoever last handled the skull; otherwise, there would have been issues with Murphy in "Something Borrowed". I do not believe Cowl is ever Bob's master; every other change of master that happens to Bob occurs when the previous master is dead, and I can totally believe Bob still being bound to Harry and faking it for Cowl.
--- End quote ---
It does not appear to be beyond question that the holder of the skull has to have some sort of magical talent in order to actually become the owner.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---In GP ?
if you think Cowl actually wants to carry out the Darkhallow, well, it takes a lot of preparation. It needs the Erlking book to be found, it needs the exhibition of ancient Native American stuff that Corpsetaker is preparing in the guise of Bartleby as a source of ancient zombies, it needs the boundary between Earth and the NN to be ripped up by the tormented ghost stuff in GP. (Which, come to think of it, indicates that somebody might well have been working in Darkhallow prep prior to GP; the tormented-ghosts plan is kind of overengineered for merely getting Bianca's revenge on Harry, it has a very specific side-effect of ripping up the boundary, and mavra is right there as a suspect.) Cowl expresses active disdain for Kemmler and the Kemmlerites, and what we see of him elsewhere has no necromancy involved, so I can believe he has no real need of Bob until his plan is ready.
--- End quote ---
Given that the author is still alive and that furthermore two copies of the book were found in the same small bookstore, I don't really think that it would take that long to find a copy of the book. The Native American artifacts were useful, for a certainty, but not only do I not think it essential, there are loads of other gatherings of important artifacts, some of which that should have already been in the Museum. Also, are you suggesting that the boundary still hasn't recovered from GP to DB, what, four years later? And, to be fair, Cowl and Kumori were right there too. I would think making sure that he had the tool he needed early on would make a lot of sense--for all Harry would know, Bianca had stashed it somewhere separate from the rest of his gear, and for all Cowl knew, Harry kept Bob stashed behind layers and layers of wards. He really did luck out on Harry removing him from his defenses...
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---If, like me, you believe that Cowl and probably Mavra played the entirety of DB primarily to have the White Council take on Grevane and Corpsetaker and secondarily to mislead the Red Court into thinking they were about to have a necrogod ally, therefore over-reaching by trespassing on Faerie under the impression they were about to obliterate the White Council, and ensuingly getting the living daylights kicked out of them by Summer in PG, then Cowl leaving Bob with Harry makes even more sense as not tipping his hand and leaving all the pieces in the right place.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure that I buy your rationale, but you do at least have one. Why would Cowl and/or Mavra and/or the BC want the RC smacked around? To extend the conflict?
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 05:01:49 PM ---I'd also note that one consequence of the "Cowl was associated with the Justin/Maggie/Lord Raith cabal" notion is that it could mean Cowl has known where Bob is all along; first through knowing Justin had him, and then through knowing Harry had survived and the Council had not destroyed Bob. (From what Luccio says about Bob in SmF, finding he had survived Kemmler's defeat after all would have been major news in the Council, so the lack of that news when Justin dies would tell Cowl someone else had retrieved Bob, and Harry's the logical prime suspect.)
--- End quote ---
Granted, and I suppose that that suspicion could have been confirmed in GP.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Sheaman3773 on September 17, 2012, 06:40:00 PM ---Because nobody likes having a solid reason and confirmation that they won't have to do something that they are afraid to do?
--- End quote ---
Unless that command enables Bob to sever those memories permanently, it's not a solid reason and confirmation, though. Even if Harry calmed the heck down and went off to live up a mountain and not get involved with the rest of the universe, Bob knows from the beginning that he will still outlive him; with the risks Harry takes, it could well be a lot sooner than that.
--- Quote ---Yes, but presumably Harry has never told Bob "tell me everything that you can think of that could bring me more power" or "what do you know that would let me be powerful quickly?"
--- End quote ---
With the sort of fights Harry gets into, I can totally see Bob worrying that Harry might ask him this sooner or later.
--- Quote ---Ah, I see. So what do you see as significant or long-term differences between our theories? If your answer is nothing, then I would suggest we drop this line of discussion.
--- End quote ---
It could make a big difference wrt further disposition of Bob, and it makes more sense to me of why Harry thanks Bob.
--- Quote ---So then, when Bob told Harry in the beginning that without those memories he wouldn't be able to help Harry at all, why didn't he start spitting out theories right then? Or a few minutes later, after he had recovered some equilibrium?
--- End quote ---
Because he has no stake in deceiving Harry. There is a difference between "Bob can come out with plausible-sounding explanations for the Darkhallow enough to keep Cowl happy" and "Bob can come up with the actual explanation of what's going on to help Harry", and I meant the former, I am sorry if I was not clear. In the former case Bob, still loyal to Harry, has a strong motive to feed Cowl misinformation that might get him killed, in the latter, his motive leads in exactly the opposite direction.
--- Quote ---It does not appear to be beyond question that the holder of the skull has to have some sort of magical talent in order to actually become the owner.
--- End quote ---
I thought we had WoJ that Butters did not have any sort of magical talent.
--- Quote ---
Given that the author is still alive and that furthermore two copies of the book were found in the same small bookstore, I don't really think that it would take that long to find a copy of the book. The Native American artifacts were useful, for a certainty, but not only do I not think it essential, there are loads of other gatherings of important artifacts, some of which that should have already been in the Museum. Also, are you suggesting that the boundary still hasn't recovered from GP to DB, what, four years later?
--- End quote ---
Yes, I am. I believe Lash alludes to this being the case in DB. Furthermore, I believe the long-term damage done to that barrier is why the events of SK with the Stone Table happen around Chicago specifically, and why other supernaturals focus their major evil plans on Chicago quite so much in general despite it having a scary wizard protector. One of my strong expectations for the BAT is that we are going to see Chicago as a whole fall into the NN for a bit - like unto the incident with Milwaukee (iirc) that Harry alludes to in SF.
--- Quote --- And, to be fair, Cowl and Kumori were right there too. I would think making sure that he had the tool he needed early on would make a lot of sense--for all Harry would know, Bianca had stashed it somewhere separate from the rest of his gear, and for all Cowl knew, Harry kept Bob stashed behind layers and layers of wards. He really did luck out on Harry removing him from his defenses...
--- End quote ---
Unless you regard Harry's place coming under siege and Harry managing to/needing to escape as a thing that's within Cowl's power to set up. I don't think that's entirely impossible, if one believes Cowl's allusions to working with Grevane and Corpsetaker.
--- Quote ---I'm not sure that I buy your rationale, but you do at least have one. Why would Cowl and/or Mavra and/or the BC want the RC smacked around? To extend the conflict?
--- End quote ---
I can buy Cowl, and whatever Outsider-oriented axis of power Cowl works for (and maybe Mavra also), having a campaign objective centred on weakening, damaging, or taking control of so many supernatural power groups as possible. That would fit with prolonging the White Council/Red Court war to maximise the damage done to both sides; it would fit with insinuating the athame into Winter, which we know from the text was provided via Cowl, and which is the most plausible vector we have for whatever form of damage happens to Lea between SK and DB and to Mab thereafter; it would fit with attempting to foment a coup in the White Court that placed one of his agents near the top, and when that failed and he was exposed, with devastating the upper echelons of the White Court with uberghouls.
Sheaman3773:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 07:11:21 PM ---Unless that command enables Bob to sever those memories permanently, it's not a solid reason and confirmation, though. Even if Harry calmed the heck down and went off to live up a mountain and not get involved with the rest of the universe, Bob knows from the beginning that he will still outlive him; with the risks Harry takes, it could well be a lot sooner than that.
--- End quote ---
My meaning is that I thought that with a command like "Never remember that again," it might be that Bob would require a specific order to countermand the previous one, while Harry just refusing to call upon it again would leave it open to any general query about shortcuts to power.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 07:11:21 PM ---With the sort of fights Harry gets into, I can totally see Bob worrying that Harry might ask him this sooner or later.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps, but I think it's pretty fair to say that Harry fears that aspect of himself pretty strongly. Bob might not understand it, but I would think that he would at least recognize it.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 07:11:21 PM ---Because he has no stake in deceiving Harry. There is a difference between "Bob can come out with plausible-sounding explanations for the Darkhallow enough to keep Cowl happy" and "Bob can come up with the actual explanation of what's going on to help Harry", and I meant the former, I am sorry if I was not clear. In the former case Bob, still loyal to Harry, has a strong motive to feed Cowl misinformation that might get him killed, in the latter, his motive leads in exactly the opposite direction.
--- End quote ---
Aaah, I see, I missed that the thrust of your point was that Bob was frantically BSing to save his incorporeal hide. Gotcha.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 07:11:21 PM ---I thought we had WoJ that Butters did not have any sort of magical talent.
--- End quote ---
Ah, that would be what I like to call a mental hiccup. I withdraw my objection, for the most part, and acknowledge that it could be based on the previous owner being dead. There are other possibilities, though, like intent to take ownership.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 07:11:21 PM ---Yes, I am. I believe Lash alludes to this being the case in DB. Furthermore, I believe the long-term damage done to that barrier is why the events of SK with the Stone Table happen around Chicago specifically, and why other supernaturals focus their major evil plans on Chicago quite so much in general despite it having a scary wizard protector. One of my strong expectations for the BAT is that we are going to see Chicago as a whole fall into the NN for a bit - like unto the incident with Milwaukee (iirc) that Harry alludes to in SF.
--- End quote ---
Two points. 1) Could you supply the quote for that allusion? 2) That's a marvelous theory, that I shall have to consider more fully.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 07:11:21 PM ---Unless you regard Harry's place coming under siege and Harry managing to/needing to escape as a thing that's within Cowl's power to set up. I don't think that's entirely impossible, if one believes Cowl's allusions to working with Grevane and Corpsetaker.
--- End quote ---
I personally don't think that he did set it up, but I can buy that he could have done so if he found it necessary.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 17, 2012, 07:11:21 PM ---I can buy Cowl, and whatever Outsider-oriented axis of power Cowl works for (and maybe Mavra also), having a campaign objective centred on weakening, damaging, or taking control of so many supernatural power groups as possible. That would fit with prolonging the White Council/Red Court war to maximise the damage done to both sides; it would fit with insinuating the athame into Winter, which we know from the text was provided via Cowl, and which is the most plausible vector we have for whatever form of damage happens to Lea between SK and DB and to Mab thereafter; it would fit with attempting to foment a coup in the White Court that placed one of his agents near the top, and when that failed and he was exposed, with devastating the upper echelons of the White Court with uberghouls.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you that that seems to be an objective of the BC, but the idea that they are predicted everything that happened is a bit ludicrous, I think. I'd be more inclined to think that they built that in as a Plan B, with Plan A including crushing the WC and then immediately turning around and crushing the RC. Plus, then the BC would have a protogodling on their side, which is hard to top.
kytheros:
--- Quote from: breck on September 17, 2012, 05:51:09 AM ---For the record my thinking is not very original on little chicago, i think lea did it or mab did it because of lea's obligations. Of course there is another wizard who spend a considerable portion of her time in harry's basement. Her skill set is entirely different from harry's as well. Perhaps she saw something that was intuitive to her that someone not versed in the subtle arts would have missed. For instance I am a prety decent hand at building computers but my friend bridget works for dell, she often fixes things i did not realise i had missed and considers them so beneath her notice that she rarely mentions it when i have something on my work bench and she is bored.
--- End quote ---
Little Chicago was built and fixed in a timeframe when Harry and Bob (and Lea/Mab) are the only known people with adequate magical backgrounds and knowledge who were in his lab.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version