The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:05:38 PM ---I don't see how you get from "he didn't know about Demonreach" to "he can't have known about LC".
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Gatekeeper would need to know a lot more than just the existence of LC to set up the accident-delay plan. He would need to know LC has a flaw, that Harry will use LC in response to his message to look for black magic, and that Harry will receive a phone call from Molly at <time>. Then, he would need to know exactly how much time Harry will spend preparing to use LC in order to devise a means to delay Harry long enough to make sure he can't use LC before the phone rings, but not so long that Harry doesn't make it home in time to accept the call. Selecting an accident as his method, Gatekeeper needs to find a way to insure the accident causes just enough damage to make sure Harry can't drive home without injuring Harry and would need a method for determining precisely the amount of time he will be delayed by the cops (including Murphy). That is an awful lot of knowledge. Thus, the fact that Gatekeeper incorrectly predicted the outcome in TC because of a lack of knowledge about Demonreach being Harry's sanctum is strong evidence that the Gatekeeper also lacked the knowledge to set up the accident as a delay.
Here's another problem with the accident-as-delay theory. Why didn't Harry's benefactor cause the accident and then immediately go fix LC? They even could have disconnected Harry's phone to prevent the interrupting phone cal. Why wait until sometime after Molly calls and before Harry needs to use LC to find her? Granted there are possible explanations (e.g. the fix occurred while Bob was gone and the benefactor couldn't have fixed it earlier because Bob/Mouse was still there), but it adds yet another complication to theory. Do we really think the Gatekeeper can secretly access Harry's apartment and fix LC but that he can't find a way to do it while Bob/Mouse are there?
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---I'd note that the car-bomb in WN is, i think, not confirmed as having anything to do with the plot of that book, so it's not impossible mysterious random killer strikes twice in two adjacent books.
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I'd have to read WN again to discuss this in detail, to see if there is some tie we missed, and I don't have time to do that. Even if it is a case of random killer strikes twice in two adjacent books, it would still make sense if something in PG set those events in motion and the attack in WN arises from those events, rather than just being entirely random.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---Indeed, we could be Occamian and suspect Uriel of that intervention.
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Yeah, I've seen the Uriel did it theory passed around. I reject it largely because it doesn't fit Uriel's M.O. of using tools rather direct action and there is also no evidence of a prior cheat. I realize we have differing opinions on Uriel, but I don't think we need to get into those here, because you are arguing for Gatekeeper, not Uriel, and I don't think Gatekeeper has the same level of knowledge as Uriel. Uriel, for example, probably knew about the Sanctum invocation.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---Some of us believe it is already that to a large extent; that Harry's free will is all the more significant for being a thing he uses really rather infrequently.
Not to be too reductionist here, it is ultimately going to be a series of novels in linear text with only one endpoint, so there are levels at which I do not find that metaphor inapt.
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There is definitely evidence that greater powers are warring to use Harry as their pawn. The point is, if there are so many powers all try to use them, there ought to at least be competition where they can interfere with each other's plans. If the eventual outcome is already defined and their competing efforts are futile to change it, then it's a math problem, not a story. The difference is, the math equation only has one solution regardless of whether you know it or not, while the ending of a story is subject to change until it is actually written, regardless of how unlikely it might be too change.
Also, Harry might use his free will infrequently, but the case books are the situations where he is using free will, so those are the situations where a person can't rely on a complicated accident-delay plan when simpler methods are available. The difference between a novel and a mathematical proof is that a mathematical proof always only has one endpoint regardless of whether you know what that is. A novel doesn't become definite until after it is written
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---At a telling-a-good-story level, given that Jim has explicitly introduced characters who have the degree of ability to out-think a human angels have, it would seem inconsistent and unconvincing to me for any that are interested in Haryy not to mostly be able to play him much better than he knows or can see coming.
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Better than Harry sees coming, yes, but not perfectly and not without the possibility that other players might ruin their plans. They control Harry by predicting his emotional responses. Less emotional choices like "Do I call a cab, ask Murphy for a ride, walk, etc...." are harder to predict and can't be relied upon in setting up a plan. That's why the accident-delay doesn't work, because you don't really know how Harry will choose to get home. I also doubt you can accurately predict the precise amount of damage he will sustain in an accident that is serious enough the cops suspect it was an intentional attack.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---OK, from a meta-story perspective ?
PG seems to me to be notably different from all the preceding books in terms of how standalone it is. A larger proportion of the significant players are people we've met before, and it's the first one where rather than there being a couple of loose ends, the ending is Harry explicitly acknowledging he doesn't have a clue about what was really going on at the centre of events. From an Aristotelian point of view, the eight book of planned twenty-plus-three is the transition between Beginning and Middle, and the differences I mention above fit with that. So if there was going to be a book for which "here is a random snippet of arc plot that could technically fit anywhere" was appropriate, PG seems like the best one to me.
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That makes sense, but rather than just "introduce random snippet of arc plot" here, it makes even more sense to introduce that random snippet by tying it into the plot of PG.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---I'm inclined to think, considering how on-the-ball and well informed Rashid is in SK, that there's something specifically about Demonreach that is throwing him off in TC, rather than that TC is a reasonable standard for judging his degree of clued-in in general. And he has specified he will not set foot on the island.
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That's a good rebuttal theory. However, if Demonreach can put a blind spot in Gatekeeper's knowledge, I would think some of the other players in PG could do the same. Gatekeeper doesn't appear to be on quite the same level as Uriel and Mab and I think there is still too many things that could have happened between the accident and phone call for the Gatekeeper to have engineered a perfect delay. Honestly, I don't think Mab could have managed that either. Finally, anyone who could have done it could also have found a simpler way to do it.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---Indeed. If the object of the exercise is to corrupt Harry's judgement without him knowing it - as witness the anger issues Murphy calls him on in WN, which are already showing in PG (where he concentrates on roasting the Giger-Alien fetch rather than stopping to help one of its victims, whom he then realises he might have been able to save if he'd acted differently). It fits that pattern.
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How exactly does secretly fixing LC corrupt Harry's judgment without Harry realizing it? Not fixing it and or fixing it just enough for Harry to survive would teach Harry that refusing Lash's offer to help him if he picks up the coin cost Molly her life. Secretly fixing it doesn't given Harry any reason to seek Lash's help in the future.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 07:26:19 PM ---The latter only works if she assumes Harry will be dispassionately rational about accepting her help, which he won't, because a) he has a pretty strong conviction that accepting help from Fallen will have long-term bad effects, and b) given a), Harry being Harry is going to be extreme ends of stubborn about it.
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Yeah, Harry does have pretty strong convictions about not accepting help from Fallen. That's why Lasciel needs to wait for ideal situations to offer her aid. Knowing Harry, the perfect such situation would be one where he needs Lasciel's help not to save himself, but to save the life of someone else. In other words, Harry's need to help Molly is the precise type of moment when he is most susceptible to temptation. If Lasciel had any bargaining chip to play in that situation (knowledge of the flaw) she would have played it. Instead, she appealed only to his self-interest to stay alive and the general fear that LC was a dangerous and unready spell.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Orbweaver on November 05, 2012, 07:55:25 PM ---TWG. And yes, I don't think that they're going to give him carte-blanche on any set of "rules" he lays out. If they were going to do that, they'd have simply followed him instead of becoming what they are today.
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I'm not sure I'm with you on this, because to my mind it's entirely possible to be utterly at odds with some entity and still trust them to be consistent with their nature and have the virtues of their flaws. (I can refrain from going into yet another rant about how Harry assumes "evil" always equals "self-destructively selfish" at any time.)
Indeed, I'd argue that if the Fallen did not trust the WG to play by its own rules they're less likely to have rebelled, because there would have been more of a plausible risk of it arbitrarily squashing them like flies.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Aminar on November 05, 2012, 08:02:13 PM ---It's always seemed to me that they're fight is about exploiting his rules. They're on the planet to balance his actions after all.
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yes, but is that their objective/intent, or is that a thing the WG forces on them ?
I have difficulty believing that Nicodemus would continue playing Armageddon lotto if he had sound reason to believe that Armageddon inevitably meant a beating of his side.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Orbweaver on November 05, 2012, 08:05:44 PM ---After we've had Uriel, who supposedly conned the father of lies? Jim has openly stated that in the DV, Heaven is not above using evil to their own ends. Nicodemus and his crew know better than to trust what they're being told by the other side of the conflict. That's just common sense.
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It depends on whether you see trusting Heaven's overall moral objectives and trusting Heaven's strategic approaches as the same thing. Uriel may have conned the Father of Lies, but unless he's running a long con on Harry and all the supposedly clued-in Church and related people Harry interacts with (which i am entirely prepared to believe), he is bound by rules of engagement.
Orbweaver:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 08:27:59 PM ---It depends on whether you see trusting Heaven's overall moral objectives and trusting Heaven's strategic approaches as the same thing. Uriel may have conned the Father of Lies, but unless he's running a long con on Harry and all the supposedly clued-in Church and related people Harry interacts with (which i am entirely prepared to believe), he is bound by rules of engagement.
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Then why has Uriel been taking actions that deliberately break the "rules of engagement" in order to "keep the balance", as he suggested he's been doing with Harry? He specifically said that because seven words were used to "break" the rules, he also gets seven words he can use. If Heaven is trying to have their cake and eat it too, I don't think Nicodemus and his crew are just going to sit back and let them do so.
That means the Denarians are expecting the rules of engagement to almost routinely get broken. By both sides.
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