The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
Cozarkian:
There are two possibilities for the accident:
1. Someone was trying to hurt Harry.
2. Someone was trying to save Harry from using LC before the phone call.
If #1 is correct, then we have the follow up question, why put a mysterious and random attempt to hurt Harry in PG rather than any other book? Here we have 3 possibilities - a) It was an attempt by someone who isn't normally in Chicago, so that was their only opportunity, b) it was specifically designed to try to keep Harry from interfering with the events in PG or c) PG is just as good as any other book for a random, mysterious accident and JB needed an excuse for Harry to talk to Murphy, so it was convenient to use in PG. Notably, it could also be any combination of any of the above.
With #2, we introduce a character whose level of knowledge of future events and ability to manipulate Harry and the future are at least equal to Uriel. It turns the entire themes of the Dresden Files on its head. Rather than being a story about Harry and free will, it's a story about godlike entities who can control everything Harry does. And since they all have such perfect knowledge, it isn't even a chess game where one godlike entity might outmaneuver another, because they already know who will win in the end, so it is really just a complex math equation that only has a single proof.
Okay, forget the boring story aspect of #2, there is a better reason the accident wouldn't just be a delay tactic. From a Doylist perspective, it adds absolutely nothing to the story. Imagine this scene of events: Gatekeeper warns Harry, Harry drives home and prepares to use LC, just before he finishes using LC, the phone mysteriously rings. Tada, JB could tell the exact same story without ever using an accident. It would have the exact same outcome and provide the exact same mystery (why did the phone ring at that precise moment?). The only benefit JB would get from setting up a complicated superentity plan to delay Harry by the precise amount of time needed is that JB has an opportunity to have Murphy and Harry talk without relying on a "random accident." I'm sure JB could have found some other explanation if that was his goal. Like maybe Murphy knocking on his door (instead of a phone call) and asking Harry why there is a girl named Molly at the station begging someone to call Harry Dresden instead of her parents.
Okay, onto specifics.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 04:58:16 PM ---given Jim's response to being asked would we see Ace from SK again with querying whether we were sure we hadn't, it could as easily have been him and unrelated to the rest of the plot of PG entirely.
--- End quote ---
Sure, but if it was a random attempt by Ace, why put it in PG instead of another book? Likely the answer would be that Ace has some reason to try to keep Harry from being involved in the events of PG, a fact we will discovery later.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 04:58:16 PM ---I am positing the Gatekeeper foreseeing exactly how the timing of the accident works, in terms of long enough a delay and not injuring Harry too severely, and then going forth and doing what he knows will get the desired result. I think that works whether he's looking at a fixed future, or looking at a set of options and picking the one that does what he wants.
--- End quote ---
That is a heck of a lot of knowledge for a guy that in TC, didn't even realize that Harry had claimed Demonreach as Sanctum and incorrectly predicting that Harry's plan would fail and cause more damage than good. Maybe Gatekeeper is just a really good actor and his entire appearance was just an excuse to provide some obscur advice to Harry that would alter future events in the precise manner the Gatekeeper wanted, but I'm inclined to believe it shows the Gatekeeper is not as all-knowing as you argue he is.
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 05, 2012, 04:58:16 PM ---I am wary of any argument based on the logic of how an entity noted even among Fallen for her deceptiveness is going to argue; I can equally well believe, for example, that her arguing against Harry using it but not mentioning the flaw is intended to stop him suspecting her having any knowledge of the flaw when he does find out about it.
--- End quote ---
To what gain? You think she secretly helps Harry and covers his tracks so he won't be angry that she secretly helped him, thereby insuring that Harry gets the benefit of having the coin without ever realizing the benefits he is receiving? That is a terrible way to manipulate someone. Instead, she could avoid Harry's anger by providing help, forcing Harry to realize that with her help he can accomplish far more good (saving Molly) than he can without your help. Which is a better lesson for Lasciel "You need help from a mysterious source that wasn't me in order to accomplish your goals" or "I can help you accomplish your goals?"
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 05:37:16 PM ---Actually Lash wouldn't tell Harry, because he wouldn't have believed her. Harry would have seen her attempt to warn him about the flaw as another ploy to get him to take up the coin.
--- End quote ---
Harry isn't dumb. He wouldn't just ignore Lash. He'd bargain or try to force her to give him enough information so he (or Bob) could verify the existence of the flaw. Then he would bargain or try to force Lash to show him how to fix it (if he or Bob couldn't figure it out themselves). Either way, Lash still gains more because Harry learns that she has power/knowledge that can help him successfully perform magic that will save lives (in this case Molly's).
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 05:37:16 PM ---She also had plenty of time while using the illusions to slow him down.
--- End quote ---
So Lash is so powerful she can hit Harry with illusions while simultaneously fixing LC (or causing Harry to unknowingly fix LC while fighting the illusions) and yet there are no other instances in the story where she comes close to displaying that kind of power? I'm not even convinced there is enough evidence that Lash could have fixed LC while Harry was unconscious. There certainly isn't enough to suggest she could fix it without his knowledge while actively fighting him for control of his perceptions.
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 05:37:16 PM ---It still comes down to her being the only being that knew about LC, could fix it and was present.
--- End quote ---
What evidence do you have that she could fix it, or even knew it needed to be fixed?
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 05:37:16 PM ---Mab has already answered the question about her replacement choice if Harry died.
She would recruit Thomas to be her Winter Knight instead...
--- End quote ---
Mab also went through a great deal of effort in GS to make sure she didn't have to pick Thomas as Winter Knight instead. Fixing LC would be significantly less effort.
Decorus:
No Harry isn't dumb, but he is a stubborn idiot especially when he's already made up his mind.
Lash also isn't stupid enough to waste time using illusions to stop Harry when she already knows that it won't work and Harry will do it anyway.
Lash has the ability to completely stop Harry from doing anything see Turn Coat where Nico fully expected Lash to be able to completely neuter Harry.
Making Harry think he's fighting illusions and winning while using his body to fix LC is no harder then making Harry fight illusions.
Lash even told Harry he was going to die and the model was going to blow up and Harry didn't care he was going to do it anyway.
Even even threatened to do it while she was mucking around with his concentration.
Lash was able to accelerate Harry's brain, block mental attacks and has advanced magical knowledge that goes back to the begining of time.
Lash even knows the how and why Harry can hurt Outsiders with magic.
Lash actively keeps Harry from finding out what she can and can not do, because every time Harry learns these things its one less effective tool in her tool box.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 06:13:47 PM ---No Harry isn't dumb, but he is a stubborn idiot especially when he's already made up his mind.
--- End quote ---
He was going to use LC, but he isn't so stubborn that he wouldn't give her a chance to prove the flaw existed so he could fix it. His goal is to save Molly, not kill himself. So he's going to investigate if she claims to have knowledge that would help him save Molly without dying.
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 06:13:47 PM ---Lash also isn't stupid enough to waste time using illusions to stop Harry when she already knows that it won't work and Harry will do it anyway.
--- End quote ---
She doesn't know Harry will do it anyway. In fact, she is completely flabbergasted to discover that Harry is essentially willing to commit suicide for a small chance that he might save Molly. That scene is actually one of the key moments in showing why Lash changes. She didn't believe someone like Harry could exist, someone who is willing to try to help others even when the likely outcome is that he fails and dies as a result. It's what makes Lash start to think Harry might be worth saving. Without the PG events, Lash wouldn't have chosen self-sacrifice in WN.
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 06:13:47 PM ---Lash has the ability to completely stop Harry from doing anything see Turn Coat where Nico fully expected Lash to be able to completely neuter Harry.
--- End quote ---
Temporary paralysis and altering his perceptions (illusions and the time-warp thing) are likely significantly easier than forcing Harry to take physical or magical actions or from affecting the world outside of Harry. We've never seen her ability to do that. Also, I'm sure Harry would be able to fight and break her effort to stop him completely. It might have been long enough for Nico's purposes, but Harry would win that mental fight eventually. Point of fact, we also only actually know that Nico thought it was possible for Lash to stop Harry completely. Harry's prior battles with Lash, including locking her away in his mind, might have already trained him enough to fight that.
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 06:13:47 PM ---Making Harry think he's fighting illusions and winning while using his body to fix LC is no harder then making Harry fight illusions.
--- End quote ---
Then why is Harry absolutely amazed when Ivy can simultaneously cast different spells? Using magic requires focus and it's difficult to focus so completely on multiple tasks at once. There is no way Lash could focus on fixing LC and keeping Harry unaware of it and making Harry see illusions despite his active attempts to resist it.
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 06:13:47 PM ---Lash even told Harry he was going to die and the model was going to blow up and Harry didn't care he was going to do it anyway. Even even threatened to do it while she was mucking around with his concentration.
--- End quote ---
Right, and if she knew about the flaw she would have gone that one step further and told him "I'm not guessing, I've seen a flaw and you will die, but I can help you fix it, for a price." Clearly, she wasn't holding back in trying to stop him from using LC, so why would she hold back the one piece of information that would be almost certain to at least make him take a moment to reduce his chance of death?
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 06:13:47 PM ---Lash was able to accelerate Harry's brain, block mental attacks and has advanced magical knowledge that goes back to the begining of time.
Lash even knows the how and why Harry can hurt Outsiders with magic.
--- End quote ---
All of those are internalized uses of magic and personal knowledge that provide very little to no evidence that she could fix LC or force Harry to fix it. Further, they are not evidence that she even understands how to fix LC. There are lots of powerful and old Wizards who are far more knowledgeable than Luccio, yet only she knew how to make Warden swords. Just because Lasciel has lots of ancient magical knowledge that Harry lacks, building LC could still be one are of magic that he actually knows more about than Lasciel.
--- Quote from: Decorus on November 05, 2012, 06:13:47 PM ---Lash actively keeps Harry from finding out what she can and can not do, because every time Harry learns these things its one less effective tool in her tool box.
--- End quote ---
No she doesn't. She frequently helps him voluntarily in hopes that he will become more and more dependent upon using her and eventually agree to pick up the coin.
Viktor:
--- Quote from: Serack on September 14, 2012, 01:36:19 PM ---YLC?
#2 part 2 LC v2.0
If the point of LC was to show that Harry was building thaumaturgy muscle (specifically with theater spanning voodoo dolls) and the logical progression after the first one was destroyed is that he would build a 2nd that is more ambitious, what will v2.0 be like?
I suspect that such a device would somehow be tied to Demonreach. There is good reason to believe that Harry will end up dwelling in the hut by the lighthouse, and that will be where his new lab will be... So I posit that either LCv2.0 will be one of 2 things.
* A portable model of Demonreach that he can carry around and use as a portable link to the benefits of that sanctum.
* A fixed model of something else (the world?) built in a new lab on Demonreach. This diserves some extra bullets
* Harry's new ability to go pretty much anywhere he wants via ways his mother found would certainly help facilitate gathering material for thaumaturgy links for such a model.
* Such a model might have some interesting interactions with Harry's Demoreach Sanctum benefits. Intelectus wherever the model goes?
--- End quote ---
You know what I just realized? LC is a MUCH weaker version of the Genus Loci(probably spelled it wrong) that Demonreach provides Harry while on the Island. It's use may have been to give Harry training on how to create such a tool, and perhaps now that he HAS it through Demonreach, he can attempt to replicate it across a wider scale given his newfound power and previous attempt (LC 1.0) at it.
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