Author Topic: Science Fantasy worlds  (Read 8165 times)

Offline prophet224

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 172
    • View Profile
    • Matt's Main Page (Under Construction)
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2007, 06:26:32 PM »
Just to throw this into the pot... L.E. Modesitt's Order/Chaos series.  The first few were excellent, but he's into the double digits now and it is getting old.

There's actually one whole book where you find out that the basis for much of the O/C world's civilization is from a ship that jumped dimensions... from one of his other series'.  Amusing... (that one was the best book, btw).

And I know it was already mentioned, but the Coldfire trilogy was a personal favorite of mine.
*NEW* DragonCon Writer's Track Notes:
Middle of page at: http://www.novusimperia.net/

Local but online Writer's Group:
http://writing.novusimperia.net/

Hypertext SotC SRD:
http://www.novusimperia.net/FATE_SRD/Fate3SRD.php

Offline Kristine

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8075
  • You can have your own truth, not your own facts
    • View Profile
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2007, 08:19:57 PM »
I don't know if this qualifies but all the Books of Swords by Fred Saberhagen (has a good Dracula series as well) but you have to read the prequels, which are all together in the book, Empire of the East.  It shows how this fantasy world is actually post apocalyptic - sort of.
"When I was 5 years old my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when i grew up. I wrote down “Happy”. They told me i didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life. "
-John Lennon-

Offline prophet224

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 172
    • View Profile
    • Matt's Main Page (Under Construction)
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2007, 08:45:11 PM »
You know, the Wheel of Time books indicate pretty strongly throughout them that they are set in a far future of our world.
*NEW* DragonCon Writer's Track Notes:
Middle of page at: http://www.novusimperia.net/

Local but online Writer's Group:
http://writing.novusimperia.net/

Hypertext SotC SRD:
http://www.novusimperia.net/FATE_SRD/Fate3SRD.php

Offline Uilos

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3537
  • The Snark Side of the Force
    • View Profile
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2007, 02:05:38 AM »
I've always enjoyed the Dune universe. Herbert had such a terrific way of showing exactly the inner connectedness of all the planets involved, even the minor ones. You knew who was with who and everything in between
Quote from: Shecky
It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire 'tude, the lips acquire mouthiness, the glares become a warning. It is by snark alone I set my mind in motion.

Offline Spectacular Sameth

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4026
  • At least 20% cooler in 10 seconds flat.
    • View Profile
    • Dragon City
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2007, 07:47:12 AM »
Science, done in the real world, has as an absolute fundamental axiom the assumption that new things are worth knowing, be that because they are fun or cool or interesting or are going to let you build more stuff or whatever.

The basic assumptions of Crichton's work are that new things are scary and dangerous and have to be stamped out because otherwise they will have inevitable terrible consequences, and that people who work to find out new things are at best irresponsible and more likely malevolent. (I do not think this assumption is absolutely essential for making a technothriller work, though I'm having a hard time seeing where the technothriller values of preserving the status quo could fit with a geniune SFnal attitude to new ideas; horror seems pretty much defined by the Other being horrible and dangerous and scary, but I don't think the question of whether something is horror or not is in the same direction as whether it's SF or fantasy or mainstream, it's possible to be horror or not-horror in any of those spaces.)

As somebody who works in real-world science, I take major umbrage at Crichton's assumption.

As a fan of Crichton, I take umbrage to your assumption that that is the point that he's trying to get across. Crichton has no hidden agenda. There's nothing to read between the lines. His books are meant to tell a story. That is all.

Think of it this way, when someone makes a movie and they depict the villain as being a Russian radical, are they condemning ALL of Russia? Hell no. What about movies about the American revolution and the bad guys are British? Are they condemning England and the other British countries? Again, no. Except for State of Fear (and possibly Next), Crichton had no hidden agenda in his telling of his story. That was all he was trying to do. Tell a story. He finds something cool and writes about it. If anything, I think he's making the public aware that we might have these capabilities or something similar. Nothing more.

Okay, what about an example from his work? Ever read Sphere? Sphere has nothing to do with technology malfunctioning. The underwater habitat never malfunctioned until it was hit by a squid several times and had an electrical surge. That one, Crichton exploits the human race and their minds being dangerous given the power of manifestation combined with fear. So is he condemning us? No.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2007, 03:45:03 PM »
As a fan of Crichton, I take umbrage to your assumption that that is the point that he's trying to get across. Crichton has no hidden agenda. There's nothing to read between the lines.

I'll agree this far.  This isn't subtext; this is text.

Quote
Think of it this way, when someone makes a movie and they depict the villain as being a Russian radical, are they condemning ALL of Russia? Hell no.

If that was the only thing they ever made movies about, it would start to suggest an underlying agenda.

Quote
Ever read Sphere? Sphere has nothing to do with technology malfunctioning. The underwater habitat never malfunctioned until it was hit by a squid several times and had an electrical surge. That one, Crichton exploits the human race and their minds being dangerous given the power of manifestation combined with fear. So is he condemning us? No.

Sphere; humans find a mysterious artifact of unknown advanced technological origin which provides great power. This provides horrible danger and what is presented as a happy and satisfying ending is to get rid of it.

Jurassic Park: humans learn to clone dinosaurs.  The dinosaurs are horribly dangerous and the
happy and satisfying ending is to get the humans way from them and get rid of them.

Prey: humans learn how to make active nanotech. It turns out to be horribly dangerous, and, for a change, the ending is not quite sure whether it's been got rid of, but again, that's where the sympathies are going.

The possibilities for positive outcomes to technological progress or change of any sort are not in these books. The status quo is good and change is bad.  This is Luddism plain and simple.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Spectacular Sameth

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4026
  • At least 20% cooler in 10 seconds flat.
    • View Profile
    • Dragon City
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2007, 08:04:02 PM »
I think you're taking the wrong thing from it and I believe I have a quote from the Jurassic Park movie that helps:

John Hammond: When we have control—
Ellie Sattler: You never had control — that's the illusion! I was overwhelmed by the power of this place. But I made a mistake, too. I didn't have enough respect for that power, and it's out now.

The point here is that it's more about knowing what you're doing rather than condemning new technology. What was the single biggest mistake they made in the Jurassic Park novel? Hiring a guy who was untrustworthy and then paying him little. He was the one that sabotaged the park. The dinosaurs running amok are the same as opening the cage to the big predators at a zoo. If they want to eat humans, they will try.

The whole reason they destroyed the island at the end was to prevent the dinosaurs from going to other islands like they had managed to do. But they lacked control because they made more than they could keep track of and they didn't know much about the dinosaurs at all. You have to know about the creature you're holding captive to be able to keep it captive.

See, in Jurassic Park it was more of people taking short cuts than the new technology. The fencing system is pretty standard. I'll admit that he did make the dinosaurs a bit TOO aggressive at times, but that was for conflict reason. I honestly can't see how this would be cloning failing, but more or less a zoo that was poorly ran. Think about it: Hammond was more obsessed with making money than showing off his creation. Okay, I could see a greed thing about this, but that's about it.

Also, I think part of the reason they were killed was for a conclusive ending. Closure. I mean, reasoning was to prevent the dinosaurs from spreading to other islands seeing as Costa Rica was having a problem with compies attacking their young.

Let's look at Sphere:
Like I said, Sphere has nothing to do with technology malfunctioning. The Sphere worked perfectly. It did was it was built to do. The problem here was that those that got the power didn't know how to use it. Harry was the first one to get it and he didn't have control over it because no one had had that power before him. He didn't know what it could do. He didn't know he was doing anything.

Beth was emotionally and mentally unstable. She had no control there and it effected how she used her powers.

Norman, on the other hand, having observed both Beth and Harry, had known what to do. He had control over it. Truth be told, Norman is a perfect example of what I'm getting at. The technology works for him. Nothing bad happens when he gets it. He doesn't manifest a giant squid or anything of that nature. Why? He has control of both the powers and of his own emotions.

At the end, the Sphere was thought to have been destroyed because the three didn't think that humans could handle the power. I think it's the same as not going around town handing out guns and doing background checks on people who do have guns. Can you imagine a whole lot of people like Beth with that power?

In Prey:
I can't really say much about this one. I read it once back in 2004 (or whenever it was new) and haven't reread it since. But I will say this: the methods in which they made nanobots was unknown to them. They got out and ran amok because they were unaware of their capabilities. I don't recall the nanobots being taken care of in this one, either. I thought the threat was still rampant.



I still think it's the arrogance of thinking you have control and really not having it. There's no way Crichton COULD write technology in a positive light without writing essays, but he'd rather write fiction, which means he needs conflict. Rather than having this impressive technology in the background of a novel, he opts to portray it in a "negative light" so as to have conflict.

I'm going to have to pull out more examples for my point:

In Crichton's book Next, there was nothing NEGATIVE about bioengineering. In fact, I recall a happy ending with a talking parrot and an ape kid. The good guys were trying to save them both from people who wanted them for selfish reasons. If nothing else, I think Next is a perfect example of when he doesn't follow the formula.

Steve Alten wrote several books about Megalodon sharks. The sharks attack humans and large sea mammals. Does that mean he hates sharks? Probably not. In fact, I'm pretty sure he likes them. In fact, a lot of people write about what they like. I've written dragons in a negative light before, but I really like dragons. I added them because I liked dragons. I just thought it more sensible to put them in a negative light.

Offline Nessus_Wyndestrike

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 6
  • Amateur Writer
    • View Profile
    • Deviantart Account
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2007, 01:23:48 AM »
My idea on any well-written, compelling world is one that can keep expanding, imagining and thinking about even after you've finished all the books available to read. I started out with a basic concept of my own "world" as it were.

As time went on, I became fascinated-obsessed with the cultures and races and even the climate in each city. The way things were governed on one continent to the next, how each city and it's boundaries interacted with one another. Trade and commerce, clothing styles, cultural hairstyles, architecture. Even the variants of food and travel. For example, one of my continents has to import horses, and they are very expensive both to transport and to care for.

A truly captivating world is "alive" and convincingly "real".

~N.W.
“I did not know you would be so…uninformed.” It was the most creative way anyone had ever suggested that I was ignorant.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2007, 03:43:21 PM »
I think you're taking the wrong thing from it and I believe I have a quote from the Jurassic Park movie that helps:

John Hammond: When we have control—
Ellie Sattler: You never had control — that's the illusion! I was overwhelmed by the power of this place. But I made a mistake, too. I didn't have enough respect for that power, and it's out now.

The point here is that it's more about knowing what you're doing rather than condemning new technology.

That's the point exactly.

If you know what you are doing, it isn't research.  The scientific method is about finding new things and figuring them out. You don't and can't know what you're doing when it's something new; the value system here is asking for something that is by definition incompatible with actual science.

I'll believe Crichton gets this when he writes one novel in which research finds something new and useful with a net-positive effect.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2007, 03:47:43 PM »
There's no way Crichton COULD write technology in a positive light without writing essays, but he'd rather write fiction, which means he needs conflict.
.

There is a truly amazing amount of SF out there that presents technology in a positive light, much of it a more nuanced light allowing for the positive and the negative, without being lacking in conflict.  To some ways of looking at it that's kind of core to the genre.

Quote
In Crichton's book Next, there was nothing NEGATIVE about bioengineering. In fact, I recall a happy ending with a talking parrot and an ape kid. The good guys were trying to save them both from people who wanted them for selfish reasons. If nothing else, I think Next is a perfect example of when he doesn't follow the formula.

I've not read that one, and that response to it does make me feel somewhat better.  Though it's unlikely to get into my readpile anytime soon.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline ihatepeas

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • An unabashed novel-reader
    • View Profile
    • Dating the Tooth Fairy
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2007, 05:21:08 PM »
Far be it from me to detract from the fascinating Michael Crichton debate (not being sarcastic), but I'm going to anyway.

I read C.S. Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet after much prodding from my best friend, and I was completely in awe of the world (and universe) he created. The man had an amazing imagination. It was beautiful in parts, and some places not so beautiful, but it was always very original.

I, too, enjoyed the world of Sharon Shinn's Angel quintet. Samaria was totally believable and really interesting.

--Sarah
"I tracked you down with this. This is my 'timey-wimey' detector. Goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at thirty paces. Whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow." --Doctor Who

Offline meg_evonne

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5264
  • With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony
    • View Profile
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2007, 05:39:57 PM »
Some really deep interesting discussion in here. I do consider quite a bit of Crichton sci fi.  I suppose it depends on what book you read first.  As to created worlds... Dune, Ringworld and I'll toss in Andre Norton's worlds McCaffrey certainly, although her not so distant in the future "The Ship that Sang" is still one of my all time favorite reads.My very first sci fi was read by a teacher in 3rd grade, Twenty-One Balloons, by DuBois.  Do you remember that one? Talk about a fun world he made out of Kracatoa (spelling..) and all those wonderfully fun machines they used in everyday life.  Wow, it was great! That took you to Jules Verne etc Back then the writing styles could be several pages of delightful exposition, and we could even enjoy passive voice for what it was telling us, which most editors today wouldn't allow in the door from what I can tell. *Posted same time as peas, had forgotten the CS Lewis trilogy which also included Prelandria, never cared for Narnia, but that adult trilogy was super.

What fascinates me is the width and variety of the sci fi genre, which helps and hurts us.  It is SO varied and we are all so individually attuned to certain types of sci fi that it amazes me that publishers put up with us. This was posted on another thread and I've kept it because it's so true.  Our tastes are so narrow in what parts of sci fi we enjoy. Some books, like the Dresden Files, seem to cross the majority of those lines and bring us together.  Enjoy if you haven't run across this one.

How many fantasy characters does it take to change a light bulb?
Epic Fantasy Writer: How many you got?
Traditional Fantasy Writer: One. There can be only one Chosen One.
Quest Fantasy Writer: One, but he must form a party of adventurers to
retrieve the magic pliers first.
Romantic Fantasy Writer: Two, but they must do it while sharing a
passionate kiss
Erotic Fantasy Writer: Three, but they must do it naked while sharing a
passionate kiss
Horror Fantasy Writer: One, as long as it's a tentacle slivering from
the bottomless pit.
Urban fantasy writer: Three. A werewolf, a vampire, and a chic in
leather with a gun.
Literary Fantasy Writer: One, but it will take four pages to describe
it.
Slipstream Fantasy Writer: Is the light bulb an allegory for birth or
death?
Tech Sci-Fi Writer: Who uses light bulbs? Honestly...

I suspect that most of us would only chose three or four of the above breakdowns to read--yet here we are sharing the sci-fi genre.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 05:43:11 PM by meg_evonne »
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
Photo from Avatar.com by the Domestic Goddess

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Science Fantasy worlds
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2007, 07:01:03 PM »
How many fantasy characters does it take to change a light bulb?
Horror Fantasy Writer: One, as long as it's a tentacle slivering from
the bottomless pit.

Unless it's Lovecraftian horror, in which case the answer is "All of them. Never split the party."
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.