Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity

[Sanctaphrax]

I agree. While someone may not take physical damage, they are still subject to the laws of physics. Therefore, someone with physical immunity to unarmed attacks could be TRIPPED, THROWN, or HELD DOWN if a manuever was successful. The rewrites should reflect this.

If someone's immunity to unarmed attacks is narrated as passing right through living flesh but not through anything else, then you might not be able to do those maneuvers.

The current version reflects this, I think.

[Tedronai]

But you might be able to succeed with some other nominally-physical maneuvers.

And maneuvers already include a 'reasonableness test' that can be used to weed out the sorts of things that would be ineffectual on the basis of resistances and immunities.

[Silverblaze]

We have that custom Power. Costs 2 Refresh, IIRC. Does that sound sensible to you?

I think it should cost 3 Refresh, but if the comnity settled at 2 that's fine I guess.

Maybe that power should be linked or mentioned at the end of this power's write-up then.

Aside from that I think we're pretty close to as finished as this is gonna get.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Tedronai: That's the idea.

@Silverblaze: As I recall, there was no community consensus. I just picked a number and asked anyone with a problem to complain. Nobody did, so my number stood.

Why 3?

Anyway, I'd like to clarify the thing about maneuvers before calling this done. But I don't expect any really substantial changes.

[Becq]

@Silverblaze: As I recall, there was no community consensus. I just picked a number and asked anyone with a problem to complain. Nobody did, so my number stood.

For the record, I had a problem with it and complained.  :p

[Sanctaphrax]

Okay, I just went back to the thread and looked.

I didn't explicitly ask for complaints, I just posted the power for critique.

Couldn't find Becq's complaint. Did we discuss this in a thread other than the Custom Powers Master List?

[Becq]

Nah, back on page 4 of this topic.  'Twas short, so I'll repeat it:

Why would you buy an immunity to a power that specifically ignores that immunity?  Even if you bought the immunity, the power would still ignore it, because that's what the power does...

Ok, so person A has immunity to ACAEBG (and presumeably a Toughness power or the like to go along with it).  Great.  Person B has ACAEBG, which doesn't bother person A, because he is immune.  Then person B spends a Fate point, which negates person A's immunity (and Toughness).

In other words, immunity to a power that negates immunities seems like a -0 power, since it doesn't actually accomplish anything.

But YMMV.

[Sanctaphrax]

Oh, come on.

You cannot price a Power based on the assumption that it does not do what it says it does.

You might as well assume that ACaEBG fails against Physical Immunity.

Obviously, There Is No Salvation (the Power in question) trumps ACaEBG and Soulfire and Righteousness and Sacred Guardian.

That's what it's for. If you don't like it, don't include it in your games.

[Tedronai]

Back on the topic of immunity to maneuvers, my point was that, even in the absence of maneuvers being explicitly included in '[X] Immunity', maneuvers where it does not make sense for a particular target to be susceptible to that form of interference, manipulation, etc., will not function against those targets.

The explicit inclusion of immunity to maneuvers only creates problems.  It solves none.

[Silverblaze]

I'd be in favor of something akin to:

Maneuvers working fine, but declarations related to your immunity being easier and may negate certain maneuvers.

Say someone has an immunity to being moved or stopped once he starts moving (Juggernaut) anything close to strying to stop or move him would fail.  Juggernaut declares he is the Juggernaut and doesn't stop.

 Manuevers that let him keep going but add to his momentum would work fine.


I tend to agree with Becq in regards to ACAEBG.  I do not like the concept of things like There is no Salvation.

 However, it exists as a custom power: some people like it.  I cannot change that.  I think a statement like this should be included:

Immunity does not grant special protection from Soulfire, Sacred Guardian, ACAEBG, and the like unless another custom power found elsewhere is purchased (and allowed).

I think Sanctaphrax keeps removing Social immunity from his write up becuase he doesn't like it and is unwilling to compromise.  I think it is just as reasonable as being able to cast spells or fly: it is a game - not everything is going to make perfect sense.  I don't even use social stress/combat/manuevers in games I run or in the games I have played in. 

I think it should be included as an option. 

[Becq]

You cannot price a Power based on the assumption that it does not do what it says it does.

And yet you seem unconcerned that with the inclusion of TINS, ACAEBG no longer does what it says it does?

So what happens when somebody builds a new custom power, maybe "All Creatures Are Equal Before God's Might", which has exactly the same description ACAEBG does.  It would work against TINS because TINS doesn't grant immunity to ACAEBGM.

Meh, the whole discussion is silly; go ahead and design your power as you see fit, I'll step out.

[Sanctaphrax]

Immunity does not grant special protection from Soulfire, Sacred Guardian, ACAEBG, and the like unless another custom power found elsewhere is purchased (and allowed).

Sure.

I think Sanctaphrax keeps removing Social immunity from his write up becuase he doesn't like it and is unwilling to compromise.

Eh, sort of.

See, if it was just that I disliked it I'd include it.

But this isn't just something I dislike, it's also a thing that does not make sense.

I'm not as willing to accept things that make no sense as you are.

Flying and stuff can be excused as magic. Full social immunity can't.

PS: I did include a couple of social immunities. Seduction and fear are both there. It's only the blanket immunity that I dropped.
PPS: Once you include ACaEBG, Physical Immunity no longer does what it says it does. Specific trumps general. This is normal and desirable.
PPPS: TINS trumps ACAEBGM too. It mentions "all similar effects".
PPPS: TINS isn't really my Power. It's someone else's, I just rewrote it.

[ImpishMortal]

Does there really need to be immunity powers for social attacks? Said immunity probably should be the result of an aspect instead. Barring that, it makes sense that some characters/creatures will already be immune to some things due to not caring about or understanding the social battlefield.

[Silverblaze]

Does there need to be social immunity?  No.

I have no use for it at all.

I simply think for the sake of completion one should think about what it should cost.

I'd argue it should cost the same as mental immunity.

Sanctaphrax: Would you be willing to include a link for this powers dicussion at the end of it's write up so people can see how we got here and can see the discussions on ACAEBG, Soulfire, Sacred Guardian, and social immunities?

The reason I think being immune to Sacred Guardian, ACAEBG, Soulfire, Righteousness, Holy Touch (if you have a power called There Is No Salvation - holy should likely hurt you).  You get immunity to 5 powers bypass effects, some of which cost -1 through -5 refresh.  Some argue Sacred Guardian should cost more.  I think it merits -3 refresh, if the ability to bypass toughnesses ca cost from 1 to 5 points of refresh and the median is 3...that should be the cost in my mind. 















I'd also like to agree with Becq one more time then hold my piece on the matter. (TINS and immunities to ACAEBG shouldn't exist)  Powers that bypass toughnesses or satisfy catches generally ignore immunities and like effects.  Why escalation occurs is with small rewording a new version of bypassing could exist specifically to include the new custom power.  Since custom powers are allowed tehre is nothing in the rules barring errata based upon the gaming group's individual needs/tastes.

[Silverblaze]

Things I'd like to see included in the write-up.

1. List formatting for ease of costing.

2. Sanctaphrax: Would you be willing to include a link for this powers dicussion at the end of it's write up so people can see how we got here and can see the discussions on ACAEBG, Soulfire, Sacred Guardian, and social immunities?

3. For the sake of completion one should think about what Social Immunity should cost.

4. Immunity does not grant special protection from Soulfire, Sacred Guardian, ACAEBG, and the like unless another custom power found elsewhere is purchased (and allowed).


#4 is the important one in my opinion.


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Maybe I missed this in the write-up - but: I think a note needs made taht an equivalent of a +0 Catch is required to have these.

•Immunity to all mental stress costs 9 Refresh, while immunity to all physical stress costs 13 Refresh.

•Immunity to both costs 20 Refresh.



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Also, in some instances the narrative effects of hte power could have small impact on mechanics.  Immunity due to rapid healing - should still allow people to heal from vampirisms.  immunity due to imperviousness should still allow manuevers to work, as should rapid healing... Immunity due to said objects passing through harmlessly may still allow vampirism but I doubt it...many maneuvers certainly wouldn't work.  i know the current power makes mention that some maneuvers may not work.  How should we make clear that narratively immunity could be due to many factors.

 For example a lack of sexual organs can be justification for immunity to seduction.