Author Topic: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity  (Read 23082 times)

Offline ImpishMortal

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2012, 01:36:59 PM »
For example a lack of sexual organs can be justification for immunity to seduction.

Or the character could just have an aspect that says that they are asexual. Why pay for powers when you can have aspects for some of these things for free? ;)

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2012, 02:35:41 PM »
Or the character could just have an aspect that says that they are asexual. Why pay for powers when you can have aspects for some of these things for free? ;)

Counter arguement being: pay a small amount for it and have other things to get for free with another aspect.

You only get 7 aspects and a limited amount of refesh.  I fail to see why options are bad.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2012, 06:29:47 PM »
Or the character could just have an aspect that says that they are asexual. Why pay for powers when you can have aspects for some of these things for free? ;)

Because if you acquire an ability with an Aspect, then you have to spend a Fate Point to get any mechanical benefit out of that ability.

1. List formatting for ease of costing.

Is the current list format not satisfactory?

2. Sanctaphrax: Would you be willing to include a link for this powers dicussion at the end of it's write up so people can see how we got here and can see the discussions on ACAEBG, Soulfire, Sacred Guardian, and social immunities?

No. I don't want any links in the list.

I can explain the controversy in the Note sections of the relevant Powers, though. TINS already has a something a bit like that.

If you'd be willing to sum up the debate, I'd appreciate it.

3. For the sake of completion one should think about what Social Immunity should cost.

In order to do that, we'd first have to work out what the heck Social Immunity even is.

When I say that it doesn't make sense, I don't just mean it's illogical. I also mean that I don't understand how it's meant to work or what it's meant to do.

4. Immunity does not grant special protection from Soulfire, Sacred Guardian, ACAEBG, and the like unless another custom power found elsewhere is purchased (and allowed).

That's the plan.

Except for Soulfire...I'm really not sure how this should interact with Soulfire. Drop down to Mythic Toughness?

Maybe I missed this in the write-up - but: I think a note needs made taht an equivalent of a +0 Catch is required to have these.

No way.

The whole idea was to find an appropriate cost for full invincibility. If 9-13-20 Refresh isn't enough, let's make it cost more.

Besides, requiring a +0 Catch encourages BS shenanigans.

Also, in some instances the narrative effects of hte power could have small impact on mechanics.  Immunity due to rapid healing - should still allow people to heal from vampirisms.  immunity due to imperviousness should still allow manuevers to work, as should rapid healing... Immunity due to said objects passing through harmlessly may still allow vampirism but I doubt it...many maneuvers certainly wouldn't work.  i know the current power makes mention that some maneuvers may not work.  How should we make clear that narratively immunity could be due to many factors.

Yeah, I'll try to make the odd status of maneuvers clear.

For example a lack of sexual organs can be justification for immunity to seduction.

Indeed. Immunity to seduction makes plenty of sense.

The reason I think being immune to Sacred Guardian, ACAEBG, Soulfire, Righteousness, Holy Touch (if you have a power called There Is No Salvation - holy should likely hurt you).  You get immunity to 5 powers bypass effects, some of which cost -1 through -5 refresh.  Some argue Sacred Guardian should cost more.  I think it merits -3 refresh, if the ability to bypass toughnesses ca cost from 1 to 5 points of refresh and the median is 3...that should be the cost in my mind.

Specific defences should generally cost less than the thing they defend against, because they'll frequently be worthless.   

That being said, I can see some decent arguments for deliberately making TINS underpowered.

I'd also like to agree with Becq one more time then hold my piece on the matter. (TINS and immunities to ACAEBG shouldn't exist)  Powers that bypass toughnesses or satisfy catches generally ignore immunities and like effects.  Why escalation occurs is with small rewording a new version of bypassing could exist specifically to include the new custom power.  Since custom powers are allowed tehre is nothing in the rules barring errata based upon the gaming group's individual needs/tastes.

Again, not every custom Power is for everyone.

Personally, I'd prefer to get rid of ACaEBG. But I'm not just writing for myself here.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2012, 06:36:38 PM »
Because if you acquire an ability with an Aspect, then you have to spend a Fate Point to get any mechanical benefit out of that ability.

Not necessarily.
Maneuvers already having to pass a 'reasonableness test', the presence of a sufficiently strongly interpreted aspect on the target character might be enough to justify refusing that maneuver as being unreasonable, without the target character having to pay a FP.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2012, 06:40:15 PM »
But then they can just make another mechanically equivalent maneuver with a different narrative justification.

Offline ImpishMortal

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2012, 07:03:41 PM »
Not necessarily. If a character has an aspect that says they have true love (and therefore its protection), they don't have to spend a Fate Point to prevent being fed upon by a member of house Wraith. It just can't happen.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2012, 07:23:27 PM »
That's a Compel on the Raith's Aspects.

Mechanically speaking, Aspects do nothing unless invoked or compelled.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2012, 07:53:13 PM »
But then they can just make another mechanically equivalent maneuver with a different narrative justification.

In that all maneuvers are mechanically equivalent and they could simply perform a different maneuver, yes.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2012, 11:53:57 PM »
Because if you acquire an ability with an Aspect, then you have to spend a Fate Point to get any mechanical benefit out of that ability.

Is the current list format not satisfactory?

No. I don't want any links in the list.

I can explain the controversy in the Note sections of the relevant Powers, though. TINS already has a something a bit like that.

If you'd be willing to sum up the debate, I'd appreciate it.

In order to do that, we'd first have to work out what the heck Social Immunity even is.

When I say that it doesn't make sense, I don't just mean it's illogical. I also mean that I don't understand how it's meant to work or what it's meant to do.

That's the plan.

Except for Soulfire...I'm really not sure how this should interact with Soulfire. Drop down to Mythic Toughness?

No way.

The whole idea was to find an appropriate cost for full invincibility. If 9-13-20 Refresh isn't enough, let's make it cost more.

Besides, requiring a +0 Catch encourages BS shenanigans.

Yeah, I'll try to make the odd status of maneuvers clear.

Indeed. Immunity to seduction makes plenty of sense.

Specific defences should generally cost less than the thing they defend against, because they'll frequently be worthless.   

That being said, I can see some decent arguments for deliberately making TINS underpowered.

Again, not every custom Power is for everyone.

Personally, I'd prefer to get rid of ACaEBG. But I'm not just writing for myself here.

Fine, to hell with social immunity.  But if you can take stress from it, one should be able to be immune to it the way this sytem works.

No on the +0 catch?  I'm of the mind that PLOT Catches should be able to bypass invincibility.  Nothing should be invincible.  You can post it that way, but I'm pretty sure most peopl will look at it and think "designed by power gamers for power gamers"  invincibility isn't fun in a game for most people.

Nm. Format is fine.

"The whole idea was to find an appropriate cost for full invincibility. If 9-13-20 Refresh isn't enough, let's make it cost more." No.  The idea was to get rid of stacked catches (which make no sense). 

Yeah full invincibility should cost like 30+ refresh.  At least in my mind.  Opinions?

Does full invincibilty grant immunity to ACAEBG or Soulfire etc?  I say no.

I think immunity catched by soulfire becomes mythic toughness, yeah.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2012, 08:47:20 AM »
Fine, to hell with social immunity.  But if you can take stress from it, one should be able to be immune to it the way this sytem works.

If and only if it makes some kind of sense.

No on the +0 catch?  I'm of the mind that PLOT Catches should be able to bypass invincibility.  Nothing should be invincible.

Invokes and Compels can do anything. So if you want to prevent something from being invincible, they can help.

And of course, there's always ACaEBG and company.

Requiring a +0 Catch doesn't make characters non-invincible, it just encourages people to take stupid Catches.

You can post it that way, but I'm pretty sure most peopl will look at it and think "designed by power gamers for power gamers"  invincibility isn't fun in a game for most people.

Really?

Because from a powergamer's perspective, full invincibility is not terribly attractive. Too expensive.

"The whole idea was to find an appropriate cost for full invincibility. If 9-13-20 Refresh isn't enough, let's make it cost more." No.  The idea was to get rid of stacked catches (which make no sense).

Okay, the whole idea for my effort was to find an appropriate cost for full invincibility. 

Yeah full invincibility should cost like 30+ refresh.  At least in my mind.  Opinions?

I was thinking 16ish for physical, less for mental. But I could see myself bumping those numbers up.

Does full invincibilty grant immunity to ACAEBG or Soulfire etc?  I say no.

The former no, the latter probably not.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2012, 12:46:46 AM »
If and only if it makes some kind of sense.

Invokes and Compels can do anything. So if you want to prevent something from being invincible, they can help.

And of course, there's always ACaEBG and company.

Requiring a +0 Catch doesn't make characters non-invincible, it just encourages people to take stupid Catches.

Really?

Because from a powergamer's perspective, full invincibility is not terribly attractive. Too expensive.

Okay, the whole idea for my effort was to find an appropriate cost for full invincibility. 

I was thinking 16ish for physical, less for mental. But I could see myself bumping those numbers up.

The former no, the latter probably not.

+0 catches should be monitored by the GM and have them make sense.  A player decides he wants a stupid catch, he can find a new group to play with, the groups I've had...about three or four over the years wouldn't tolerate that crap at all.

16 to 20 for invincibility seems.... arbitrary but so does my number, so whatever.  i just want the number to be pretty friggin high.

Next part could be offensive to certain players play style. I am not taking a stance on the matter or giving my opinion of those people, nor their plauy style...just describing the general views of the stereotypes.
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2012, 01:51:30 AM »
For your min-maxers it is best to go with a +3 catch for your toughness, something like a weakness to poison (because the poison damage mechanics are tame with great endurance and because they are annoying to run most gm's don't.) or a weakness to something like wood, leather or salt etc (common but people don't make weapons out of them very often).

The only physical immunity a true min-maxer would go for is for magic because every min-maxer knows magic is the most broken thing in the game (your mythic tough guy with a +3 catch can still be one shotted by a stacked evocator) and so being immune to it for 3 refresh is a really good thing. 

Mind you I think you are all over-rating PI and invulnerability the power to force stalemate is never going to ruin a game to the same degree as a the one hit over kill wizard protagonist who also gets more general utility than their weaker equivalents. The invulnerable guy invulnerability doesn't allow them to completely out shine the rest of the party, it doesn't allow them too do the job of everyone else better than they can do it themselves (here looking at you Mr Wizard).
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2012, 02:27:09 AM »
Part of a GM's job is develop challenging encounters and fun encounters throughout a game. 

Lots of cannon fodder "can" slow a wizard down.  Splitting the party up temporarily can give each player time to shine.

How do you challenge someone physically if they are completely immune to harm? 

(Yeah, I know, socially and mentally challengingthem is still possible, however...I bet most people who are immune to harm, enjoy fighting and physical encounters to some extent.)

If people enjoy not being able to be hurt at all as opposed to just durable ; thats fine . they just need to realize not much is goign to challengethem if they can outlast everything.  That is why we are coming up witha cost. 

Your opinion is quite valid Ways and means...but do you have an opinion on the cost (in refresh?)  taht is what we are trying to hammer out so we can finish this power. 

Offline ways and means

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2012, 02:48:30 PM »
Part of a GM's job is develop challenging encounters and fun encounters throughout a game. 

Lots of cannon fodder "can" slow a wizard down.  Splitting the party up temporarily can give each player time to shine.

How do you challenge someone physically if they are completely immune to harm? 

By making the battle not about killing them, make your combat goals orientated and give your players reason to care beyond their characters survival. Immunity doesn't allow you to defeat the bad guy, it doesn't allow you to catch up with the speedster running away with your plot maguffin. It doesn't stop you being sidelined and embarrassed, if we are talking about a standard game 10 refresh the person who has put all their refresh into invulnerability (-8) isn't going to be better than a wizard who invested all their refresh in refinement or a focused swords man or mental canon who have put all their refresh into respective focus. In terms of practical advantage I find the current price is fine I actually find it weaker than 8 refresh spent in refinement which can make you instantly fatal as well as make you really hard to attack (enchanted item defense + 14 control).   
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 02:51:19 PM by ways and means »
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2012, 08:50:43 PM »
By making the battle not about killing them, make your combat goals orientated and give your players reason to care beyond their characters survival. Immunity doesn't allow you to defeat the bad guy, it doesn't allow you to catch up with the speedster running away with your plot maguffin. It doesn't stop you being sidelined and embarrassed, if we are talking about a standard game 10 refresh the person who has put all their refresh into invulnerability (-8) isn't going to be better than a wizard who invested all their refresh in refinement or a focused swords man or mental canon who have put all their refresh into respective focus. In terms of practical advantage I find the current price is fine I actually find it weaker than 8 refresh spent in refinement which can make you instantly fatal as well as make you really hard to attack (enchanted item defense + 14 control).

Thanks for your input.