Author Topic: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity  (Read 18548 times)

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 04:41:17 PM »
I didn't create a fixed list.  i created examples.  I can't stress that enough.  All we need to do is come  up with a few categories of immunity with a cost for each and have a wonderful little caveat: These are guidelines; alter the costs as yo usee fit.  (Just like White Wolf did)  Problem solved.

I know when White Wolf created an immunity power and made a list/chart as a guidline it streamlined the power and how to cost it.

It made things much smoother. 

That is why I want to divorce immunity from the toughness powers and make it different altogether.  New costs.  Etc.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 04:43:23 PM by Silverblaze »

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 08:03:43 PM »
Hermits / Loners like mountain men of old, from the Ozarks didn't much care about their reputation at all.
 
They might not care, but the nearest townsfolk, whom you've now convinced this person is a rampaging psychopath on the run and needs to be put down no matter how long it takes to find him...

That said, some ancient being with a god complex could easily not be effected by social consequences or stress.
See above.  Replace 'townsfolk' with 'Assembled Signatories to the Unseelie Accords'.  Replace standard torches and pitchforks with artifacts of mind-wrenching power.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 08:13:39 PM »
They might not care, but the nearest townsfolk, whom you've now convinced this person is a rampaging psychopath on the run and needs to be put down no matter how long it takes to find him...
See above.  Replace 'townsfolk' with 'Assembled Signatories to the Unseelie Accords'.  Replace standard torches and pitchforks with artifacts of mind-wrenching power.

+1.

Also, being tricked into believing something that ain't true can be modelled with social stress. Nobody's immune to being deceived, barring some form of omniscience.

That aside, separating PI from Toughness is a good idea.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2012, 08:36:31 PM »
That aside, separating PI from Toughness is a good idea.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but what would be the benefits of this move?
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2012, 08:43:39 PM »
Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but what would be the benefits of this move?

It allows you to use different Catch mechanics more elegantly and it's just good book-keeping to keep very different Powers in very different places.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 08:37:19 PM »
 
They might not care, but the nearest townsfolk, whom you've now convinced this person is a rampaging psychopath on the run and needs to be put down no matter how long it takes to find him...
See above.  Replace 'townsfolk' with 'Assembled Signatories to the Unseelie Accords'.  Replace standard torches and pitchforks with artifacts of mind-wrenching power.

I don't see that as an equivalent for social consequences.  I see that as a plot related result of events.

+1.

Also, being tricked into believing something that ain't true can be modelled with social stress. Nobody's immune to being deceived, barring some form of omniscience.

That aside, separating PI from Toughness is a good idea.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but what would be the benefits of this move?
It allows you to use different Catch mechanics more elegantly and it's just good book-keeping to keep very different Powers in very different places.

I think Immunity needs to be seperate power for for the reasons I already stated in this thread.  I honestly don't expect everyone to agree with me,  I honestly don't care if they do.

I however, will be using it in games I run.  I think other people who lurk here may like it or people who join later may like it.  Therefore, I see value in taking time to stat it up.  I would like help and opinions on how to do it. 

I won't try to force it though.  If no one wants to offer assistance I'll just take it to my own notes and stat it all myself.  No point in trying to cram it down people's throats.

Up for it Sanctaphrax?

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 08:50:29 PM »
I don't see that as an equivalent for social consequences.  I see that as a plot related result of events.

Your reputation affects how others treat you.  If your reputation is bad enough, others will react negatively towards you.  If your reputation is really bad, they may even react violently.
Social attacks can affect reputation.

...so...

'Plot-related' in that it substantially affects the plot, as should all substantial consequences against PCs or major NPCs.
'Result of events' in that it could easily be the result of a Compel (possibly invoke-for-effect-triggered) against a substantial ruined-reputation Consequence, or Taken-Out result.
Think of it as having an Extreme Consequence change the character's Trouble to 'Kill on Sight', or something of the like.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
Slough

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2012, 09:09:37 PM »
Your reputation affects how others treat you.  If your reputation is bad enough, others will react negatively towards you.  If your reputation is really bad, they may even react violently.
Social attacks can affect reputation.

...so...

'Plot-related' in that it substantially affects the plot, as should all substantial consequences against PCs or major NPCs.
'Result of events' in that it could easily be the result of a Compel (possibly invoke-for-effect-triggered) against a substantial ruined-reputation Consequence, or Taken-Out result.
Think of it as having an Extreme Consequence change the character's Trouble to 'Kill on Sight', or something of the like.

I think I get it... but I have issue with social consequences in general.  I'll simply concede the point.  That however is a topic for anotehr time and place.

I just figured if thhre was a way to be immune to damage mentally or physically there should be a way to be immune to social damage. 

At the very least if a group likes the idea, we should present a cost for such a thing.  I assume it would cost the same as physical or mental immunity?



Recap:


Table 1: Vetoed by majority of community who posted

Costs were considered too high

-0 aging, bad smells, sweating
-1 fatigue, disease, poison
-2 drowning, falling, monkey wrenches (only monkey wrenches)
-3 metal weapons, claws, (the book claims mortal magic....I think that cost is too low...)
-4 fire, cold, electricity, explosions, pure force?
-5 magic
-6 mental damage or social damage
-7 weapons of any sort
-8  attacks from immortal beings or mortal beings
-9 physical or social or mental immunity
-10 two immunites listed above
-11 immune to all three (aside from plot like mentioned above)



Table 2: social immunity assumed too silly to exist but no other feedback given...please provide more feedback.


-0 aging, bad smells, sweating

-1 fatigue, disease, poison

-2 or -3 drowning, falling, monkey wrenches (only monkey wrenches)
 metal weapons, claws, (the book claims mortal magic....I think that cost is too low...)
 fire, cold, electricity, explosions, pure force?
magic

-6 mental damage or social damage
-7 weapons of any sort

-8  attacks from immortal beings or mortal beings

-10 physical or social or mental immunity
-12 two immunites listed above
-14 immune to all three (aside from plot like mentioned above)

opinions?

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 10:15:30 PM »
I could envision Social Immunity as representing an incredibly powerful, constant, and ubiquitous, if limited, mind-control magic
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
Slough

Offline Becq

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2012, 01:14:40 AM »
Questions/thoughts:
  • What is the difference between immunity from mental damage [-6] and mental immunity [-10]?
  • Why would immunity from monkey wrenches (very narrow immunity) cost the same as immunity from metal weapons (fairly broad immunity)?
  • Would immunity from metal weapons include immunity from gunfire (lead bullets)?  Regardless, this seems generous.
  • Given that Aquatic grants immunity from drowning plus a bonus to swimming, your price for drowning immunity seems high.
  • "-2 or -3" is too vague; you're going to need to pick a price for each item on that line if the table is to be useful, especially given that that line includes most of the most important damage types.


I would still recommend making the core mechanic based on likelihood of taking consequences from a given damage source, then including a list of sample damage types to create an end result similar to your table. 

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2012, 05:36:52 AM »
I'm up for this.

I have issues with the idea of Social Immunity. I generally dislike social Powers, and this is worse than most. But I'd rather not go into too much detail, except to say that if you're mind-controlling the entire world than the world should have a chance to defend itself.

Now for some off-the-cuff numbers. These might not be perfect, but I think they're at least okay.

I'd cost catchless Physical Immunity at -16. That's 6 for Toughness, 6 for Recovery, and 4 extra to turn being really tough into being invincible. Also, I occasionally extend Toughness past Mythic and I'd like to make room for that.

Nicodemus-level toughness should probably be -12 or so. It's extremely unfair, so it should be extremely expensive.

Immunity to everything that isn't Holy seems like -10ish, and immunity to everything that isn't Cold Iron is probably about -8.

Immunity to weapons seems like a -6 power. Might be unfair to people without Fists, though. Regardless, this is where I'd put stuff that sits between specific and general.

Immunity to magic is probably -4. -3 if people can bypass it by throwing things at you magically. Same goes for other powerful specific protections.

Immunity to fire or to poison or to other very specific threats is probably -2.

Immunity to paper and other such jokes ought to be -1.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2012, 06:30:06 PM »
Will take the posts into account and try a new revised table.

After the table I'll post reasons for each costing.

From there it will be easier to debate costs and reasons why and work toward a consensus. (or as close to a consensus as we can get get)

I'll be closing and opening at work.  Plus need to run errands and do other things life demands so... likely will not get this posted until Wednesday afternoon or evening, Thursday morning at the latest.  I'll of course take all thoughts/posts/opinions seriously when designing the new power/table(s).

As always thanks for your input and cooperation thus far. ;D

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2012, 01:52:40 AM »
Please note this post was hurried and semi incomplete but I felt the need to do it before I went to bed. 


-0 aging, bad smells, sweating, paper, getting drunk, seduction attempts
-1 fatigue (from endurance - not Stress), disease, poison, drowning, monkey wrenches (only monkey wrenches or other specific thing)
-2 falling, sleep, hunger, thirst
-3 metal weapons, claws, non metal weapons, an element ( fire, cold, electricity, explosions, pure force, wind, water, earth), distractions
-4 a type of magic, a type of creature
-5 magic, weapons, natural weapons, insanity
-6 immunity to attacks from a gender
-7 attacks from immortal beings or mortal beings
 -8 immunity to attack from all but genderless beings
-13? physical or social or mental immunity (damage, insanity, distractions)
-20 two complete immunites listed above
- 30 immune to all three

Multiple immunities may be purchased by adding up hte costs.  Example: immunity to Fire and cold would cost : -6 refresh.  While an immunity to falling, drowning, fatigue and force attacks would cost -7.

Holy attacks bypass physical immunity unless an additional 2 refresh is spent.

Physical immunity must pick one item or quality (other than holy) that will bypass the resistance. This is considered a +0 catch. Example: (nicodemus - noose) etc.

Reasoning:

-0) shouldn't matter often mostly narrative
-1) annoyances or such attacks will happen rarely
-2) dangerous or important but usually isn't a big deal in most situations
-3) important or dangerous; could easily come up multiple times per session
-4) dangerous but specific
-5) dangerous, a broad group, or a common attack type
-6) broad category, will come up often if not every game
-7) broad category, will come up almost every game
-8) very broad categories, very dangerous or will come up every single game
-10 or more ) complete immunities, grants near godlike resilience, very hard to bypass nigh indestructible or unshakable


Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2012, 05:15:25 AM »
I don't think free immunity should be possible unless the thing you're immune to is truly harmless.

Social Immunity still doesn't make sense.

I think you charge too much for Mental Immunity. Mental stress isn't that common.

Immunity to drowning, fatigue, sleep, and falling can all be obtained elsewhere more easily.

I think you underestimate the importance of poison.

Stacking two immunities should not cost as much as both together. Immunity to monkey wrenches, halberds, and pickaxes should not cost as much as immunity to metal weapons.

Holy should not be given special status.

Offline Mij

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Re: Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2012, 01:00:50 AM »
Immunity to Seduction Attempts?
Your Laundry skill is Poor (-1), and the difficulty here is Great (+4) owing to old machines, poor lighting, and panty-stealing neighbors.  Roll the Fudge Dice, please.