Author Topic: A Monarchy done right?  (Read 7415 times)

Offline Quantus

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2012, 07:50:56 PM »
Until I read your last post, I was somewhat surprised that in a high fantasy setting you do not have a magical framework for the concept of monarch itself;  it would seem to me that any testing by a Council of Regents (or a body of prince-electors maybe?)  would also have to be synched to that magical framework.    Unless you are setting up a 'magical fit vs. merit fit' type of scenario?   Like throwing Her Majesty's Wizard into a blender with Difference Engine?
individual words make sense, but Im not really sure what you are saying...    :-[

I want to build the social, economic, and political structures around the framework of the magical system, but I wanted to use social pressures were possible, just to keep the structure from being too magically heavy handed.  I want to make sure I have a system of People with magical pressures acting on it, rather than a Magical system that has Human components working in it. Does that make sense?
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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2012, 08:29:34 PM »
individual words make sense, but Im not really sure what you are saying...    :-[

Is the meritocracy /within/ the magical underpinning of the throne or is the candidate's evaluation-on-merit in conflict with the _magical_ checks and balances of the throne?

Extending the issue further, in a world with such magical permeation, I see that pretty much all social and political 'rights' would need to have a magical underpinning.   IOW if you want to give your populace Magna Carta-type rights, there needs to be a magical reason for it.

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I want to build the social, economic, and political structures around the framework of the magical system, but I wanted to use social pressures were possible, just to keep the structure from being too magically heavy handed.

Why separate them?

As I see it, social pressures within a world with your magical framework can NOT be modeled by simple easy principles taken from our world.   Guild systems, for example, are great for those who do in fact reach mastery and eventual emeritus status- but how does everyone else retire or invest or provide for themselves?   Mass production (or mass resource exploitation) makes both retirement and investment a lot simpler but how does one do mass production when production is based on individual effort (of sending the brain into mindmeld with some cosmic element)?    It would be very, very simple for a world like that to descend into a magic-production-slavery mode for a lot of the same reasons cotton-crop slavery, sugar-crop slavery and pre-industrial-mining slavery existed.    Anne McCaffrey's Pern didn't go down this path because she essentially made each Hold into a need-based commune (and we can definitely read dragonriders as culturally analogous to Party members).     

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I want to make sure I have a system of People with magical pressures acting on it, rather than a Magical system that has Human components working in it. Does that make sense?

Again, I feel it would be very hard to create believable "systems of people" and then tack on magic in a world in which all human interaction with non-human reality is based on magic.    Systems of people are based on relationships and expectations and entitlements - all of which are going to have a magical component in your world.   That would be like (actually worse than) creating the Dragaeran Empire without the Orb and without the Cycle and without the Gods - and then adding magic.   It is a lot more believable to this spectator that all or most political solutions will include a direct magical component.

Offline Quantus

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2012, 02:46:12 PM »

Is the meritocracy /within/ the magical underpinning of the throne or is the candidate's evaluation-on-merit in conflict with the _magical_ checks and balances of the throne?

Extending the issue further, in a world with such magical permeation, I see that pretty much all social and political 'rights' would need to have a magical underpinning.   IOW if you want to give your populace Magna Carta-type rights, there needs to be a magical reason for it.
There will be a magical reason for the upper tier structure (King, Heir, Guild Leaders, Major House Leaders) which will be tied to a defense grid of some kind protecting the land from the outside Danger.  But the human rights and general system balance will be a product of the founding badasses that set up said magical defense grid (something I need to delve into more). Similar to the US founding fathers, they will have specific views about how a person should use and can abuse power, so they were setting up a system that they hoped would mitigate some of the dangers and abuses they were familiar with. 

The founding idea behind the Monarchy is that Family is important, but not due to Blood.  Rather its the Idea that children raised to a particular role in society will be better suited for that role (like how scientist parents often spawn scientist children becasue they are exposed to it from an early age, and can benefit from the accumulated knowledge of the family.  Higher up that also include accumulted wealth and magical artifacts, but the core is that the Family unit (a large, extended family at all levels) is your shelter and support throughout your life.  Adoption and fostering will be common, but the social norm will be to go off to a guild school with the intent to come back and use what you learn for the benefit of your Family,  usually by applying whatever skill and power you learned to the family business. 


Why separate them?

As I see it, social pressures within a world with your magical framework can NOT be modeled by simple easy principles taken from our world.   Guild systems, for example, are great for those who do in fact reach mastery and eventual emeritus status- but how does everyone else retire or invest or provide for themselves?   Mass production (or mass resource exploitation) makes both retirement and investment a lot simpler but how does one do mass production when production is based on individual effort (of sending the brain into mindmeld with some cosmic element)?    It would be very, very simple for a world like that to descend into a magic-production-slavery mode for a lot of the same reasons cotton-crop slavery, sugar-crop slavery and pre-industrial-mining slavery existed.    Anne McCaffrey's Pern didn't go down this path because she essentially made each Hold into a need-based commune (and we can definitely read dragonriders as culturally analogous to Party members).     
They are not separate, i just listed them to be inclusive of the forces I want to have on stage.

If I keep the population density low enough, and the level of "technological" development in line, I think it can be made to work.  I am pictureing a setting similar to the Old West with magic swords; frontier land in the midst of an early industrial revolution.  Settlements will be spread out, with hostile wilderness between.  Magic and magic items are common, but at that level; some local made by craftsmen, others shipped in from urban area's with new industry.  Magical energy is literally the currency (stored and traded in small objects, but more in the old school sense that it is just a useful common ground for barter trade. 

Previously the guilds were very "old school" in the secrets and showy magic. The aging king changed that.  He was a powerful Pattern Mage who instituted a system of accreditation.  This let more people from the days of secret lore and disconnected magic Circle to a more cooperative place.  Pattern Magic ties various magical processes (which may or may not be cast by the same person) into a complex working whole.  The King instituted a system that lets anyone with the ability get credentials as a Lvl 1 Fire Conjurer, or maybe a a person can get credentials as a Grade 2 Fire Source; then regardless of whether they were initially trained as an Elementaist, a Druid, Magus, etc., they can be plugged into the spell and serve the needed function.  The Industrial revolution was possible because of the idea of Interchangeable Parts.  The accreditation system provides a standard to allow interchangeable Casters.  This leads to a much more widespread practice of communal workings, giving industry a chance to take root.  But resources will be scarce enough to prevent too big of a mass market explosion.

Exploitation is always a danger, and the hierarchical society makes it moreso.  Some of the magic can mitigate it, like the cotton gin making large scale cotton slavery less economical.  But there will be a good deal of room for evil people to do evil things, as always.  The story itself is going to highlight these things, showing the Prince how widely varied the different Housedoms are and how they can so differently implement the same system (spirit of law vs letter of law, Freedom vs Order, Public servant vs ruler, etc).


Again, I feel it would be very hard to create believable "systems of people" and then tack on magic in a world in which all human interaction with non-human reality is based on magic.    Systems of people are based on relationships and expectations and entitlements - all of which are going to have a magical component in your world.   That would be like (actually worse than) creating the Dragaeran Empire without the Orb and without the Cycle and without the Gods - and then adding magic.   It is a lot more believable to this spectator that all or most political solutions will include a direct magical component.

Havent read that one, but I think you misunderstand my intent.  I am not trying to slap a magic system on top, Im trying to interweave them.  I just want it to be a system that people built, and so follows some sort of reasonable human logic (otherwise I can have the characters reasonably debate its pros and cons).  What I am trying to avoid is a system wherethe King rules because some God said so, and the Houses are their because they have always been, or because the magic system makes it unavoidable or some such.  It needs to be a system that everyone is attached to enough to preserve, so tyrants dont just try to topple the whole thing, but also something is not so divinely mandated that the MC cant come along and make massive changes when the time comes.  It need to be a system with human logic behind it, so that human logic can argue both for change and for maintaining the status quo.

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Figging Mint

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2012, 03:57:29 PM »
Previously the guilds were very "old school" in the secrets and showy magic. The aging king changed that.  He was a powerful Pattern Mage who instituted a system of accreditation.  This let more people from the days of secret lore and disconnected magic Circle to a more cooperative place.  Pattern Magic ties various magical processes (which may or may not be cast by the same person) into a complex working whole.  The King instituted a system that lets anyone with the ability get credentials as a Lvl 1 Fire Conjurer, or maybe a a person can get credentials as a Grade 2 Fire Source; then regardless of whether they were initially trained as an Elementaist, a Druid, Magus, etc., they can be plugged into the spell and serve the needed function.  The Industrial revolution was possible because of the idea of Interchangeable Parts.  The accreditation system provides a standard to allow interchangeable Casters.  This leads to a much more widespread practice of communal workings, giving industry a chance to take root.

This reads pretty well to me.

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  But resources will be scarce enough to prevent too big of a mass market explosion.

This scares me.



Havent read that one, but I think you misunderstand my intent.  I am not trying to slap a magic system on top, Im trying to interweave them.  I just want it to be a system that people built, and so follows some sort of reasonable human logic (otherwise I can have the characters reasonably debate its pros and cons).  What I am trying to avoid is a system wherethe King rules because some God said so, and the Houses are their because they have always been, or because the magic system makes it unavoidable or some such.  It needs to be a system that everyone is attached to enough to preserve, so tyrants dont just try to topple the whole thing, but also something is not so divinely mandated that the MC cant come along and make massive changes when the time comes.  It need to be a system with human logic behind it, so that human logic can argue both for change and for maintaining the status quo.

Fair enough; my suggestion would be to build at least two nontrivial social systems so that they can test each others robustness, and do not try to have each one spring Athena-like out of founding fathers' heads.    The social systems that existed in the Western US in the late 19th century were based on a very long chain of redefinitions of the concept of monarchy, and the chain would have failed without any of the links, without the Magna Carta, without Cromwell, without Churchill, without Rousseau and Locke, without the US Civil War, without the Fourteenth amendment.   In our own world, without every one of those separate steps (and without a working machine-based industry to support it) the "Old West" could so very easily have been a Chinese-slavery state run by an English-speaking viceroy.   

The task then, within your world, is to invent at least one nation-state that has magically-enabled equivalents to all that turmoil of social contracting.

For me, it would probably be a lot easier to start at the bottom, to start at a working system of divine-right monarchy, and invent two different branches away from that, than to start with a close-to-present-day concept of human rights and try to reverse engineer it.     Good luck.   

(And the reason I cited Dragaera is because Brust is quite clever enough to have set up exactly what I referred to earlier - a conflict between a purely mundane social system trying to be an empire then tack on magic later, and a magically-enabled social system that has no choice but to be an empire or lose magic altogether)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 04:08:38 PM by (FM) »

Offline Quantus

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 02:23:36 PM »
Fair enough; my suggestion would be to build at least two nontrivial social systems so that they can test each others robustness, and do not try to have each one spring Athena-like out of founding fathers' heads.    The social systems that existed in the Western US in the late 19th century were based on a very long chain of redefinitions of the concept of monarchy, and the chain would have failed without any of the links, without the Magna Carta, without Cromwell, without Churchill, without Rousseau and Locke, without the US Civil War, without the Fourteenth amendment.   In our own world, without every one of those separate steps (and without a working machine-based industry to support it) the "Old West" could so very easily have been a Chinese-slavery state run by an English-speaking viceroy.   

The task then, within your world, is to invent at least one nation-state that has magically-enabled equivalents to all that turmoil of social contracting.

For me, it would probably be a lot easier to start at the bottom, to start at a working system of divine-right monarchy, and invent two different branches away from that, than to start with a close-to-present-day concept of human rights and try to reverse engineer it.     Good luck.   

(And the reason I cited Dragaera is because Brust is quite clever enough to have set up exactly what I referred to earlier - a conflict between a purely mundane social system trying to be an empire then tack on magic later, and a magically-enabled social system that has no choice but to be an empire or lose magic altogether)
The system isnt going to be somethign that sprung forth "Athena Style,"  but is will be somethign that was planned out from the start rather than accumulated in pieces (think US constitution more than the British development).  It will ahve happened in recorded history when teh previous system failed misreably and was scrapped. The Founders responsible for saving everyone then set about designing a better system, which was the purpose of this thread.  The whole point of this monarchy is to make one that is not a Divine Right monarchy, or based on any idea of superior bloodline.  Its a monarchy built on the belief that a person is best suited for a position if they have been raised and prepared for it their whole lives. 
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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2012, 04:47:21 PM »
The Founders responsible for saving everyone then set about designing a better system, which was the purpose of this thread. 

A matter of perspective, I guess; I call that still rather Athena-like.  The US system needed several hundred years of preludes, revolts and revolutions - 1776 simply could not have happened without 1215 and 1642 and 1688 - that all incrementally changed monarchical definition.    What you're setting up seems to me more closely akin to the Code Napoleon.

Offline lt_murgen

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2012, 06:09:05 PM »
The more I think about it the more I think making the King a mystical linchpin to some defense system makes more and more sense. 
I definitely need an Enemy I think.  I dont want it to be a political enemy, and I dont really want to go so far as a natural disaster sort (like Thread from the Pern novels). 

Well, since you have a cosmological event already in your context, how about this:

The kingdom was founded after a massive series of meteorite strikes upon the area.  The survivors banded together to form the kingdom.  As they recovered, a strange crystalline mass was found.  It came from the stars, and appears to be sentient.  It advised the survivors how to build and structure their kingdom.  The Regent is bound to it upon taking the throne- thus the strongest candidate is chosen.  That is the official story.
As your heir in waiting goes along, he uncovers the real story, known only to the leaders of the great houses.  The crystalline structre is alive, and detests humanity.  When it crashed, humans attempted to break it up like they would a diamond.  In anger, it called out to the meteors above, ravaging the land.  Only the strongest of the survivors was able to bind the creatures will to their own.  Thus it has always been- the strongest of them must force the creature to submit at the new regents coronation to ensure the survival of the land.

That the regent might allow the entitiy some free reign to send a few city smashing meteoroids into a wayward Houses stronghold is enough to ensure their civility.
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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2012, 08:11:16 PM »
Nobody has mentioned Plato's The Republic, and its concept of a Philosopher King as the ideal type of ruler for a city-state.  I don't think that Socrates and Plato are taught much in public schools now, but this was the source of choosing a wise, just and truthful leader based on his talents and abilities, as determined by the wisest citizens of the state. 
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Offline Quantus

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2012, 12:37:38 PM »
Nobody has mentioned Plato's The Republic, and its concept of a Philosopher King as the ideal type of ruler for a city-state.  I don't think that Socrates and Plato are taught much in public schools now, but this was the source of choosing a wise, just and truthful leader based on his talents and abilities, as determined by the wisest citizens of the state.
After a short of wiki-crawl on the subject, I think that will be a goldmine for defining the character of the different houses!  Thanks
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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 04:27:48 PM »
After a short of wiki-crawl on the subject, I think that will be a goldmine for defining the character of the different houses!  Thanks

Be careful - Plato is like guns, horses and sailing - there are people with simply vast knowledge of the material out there who'd simply love to pick it all apart, and even the ones with less knowledge can get tempted to try.   

Offline Quantus

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2012, 06:24:46 PM »
Be careful - Plato is like guns, horses and sailing - there are people with simply vast knowledge of the material out there who'd simply love to pick it all apart, and even the ones with less knowledge can get tempted to try.
So true.  I certainly wont be quoting him in any way, but I like the reasoned progressions from one structure to another, and how it goes into the mindsets of each type of ruler.  It will help me flesh out the motivations and idealogies of the different Major Houses. 
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Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2012, 09:28:45 PM »
Differing philosophies on what constitutes "wisest" give you a great deal of room to work in everything from comedy to knife fights.  (Which aren't really mutually exclusive.)  Think Theoretical Physicists vs. Applied Science types or engineers.  (Or just watch some Big Bang Theory.)

Offline Sir Huron Stone

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2012, 02:22:40 AM »
I've read the whole thread (whew!) and i like what you're thinking, but the one thing that keeps rubber-banding back into my mind is this:

Stable Government... don't make really good stories. Usually.
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Offline Yeratel

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2012, 03:00:20 AM »
I've read the whole thread (whew!) and i like what you're thinking, but the one thing that keeps rubber-banding back into my mind is this:

Stable Government... don't make really good stories. Usually.

Stability tends to lead to Conservatism, then to stagnation.  That spells Opportunity to someone with ambitions.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: A Monarchy done right?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2012, 01:15:33 PM »
I've read the whole thread (whew!) and i like what you're thinking, but the one thing that keeps rubber-banding back into my mind is this:

Stable Government... don't make really good stories. Usually.
Stability tends to lead to Conservatism, then to stagnation.  That spells Opportunity to someone with ambitions.
I wouldnt go so far as to call it stable, but What Im going for is a political situation where the various factions are all still committed to the current structure, rather than constantly all gathering up their armies for overt War whenever they disagree.  That way they all will be equally freaked out when the MC shows up with powers that completely shake the foundations of the Status Quo.

Its only going to start stable.  And the Stability is something that exists because most conflicts are within a given area, and so dont often cross borders and grow enough to threaten the whole of society.
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