Author Topic: Template Balance  (Read 12996 times)

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2012, 01:59:06 AM »
I'd allow that, however I would make one addition.
In cases where the trapping relates to a skill that should require some experience or training then the character ought to have that capability in some form or another before I would allow them to buy the relevant stunt, even temporarily.

I think this is unnecessary, it's a 'balanced' use of a point of refresh to shift the trapping of a skill onto discipline instead.  So if I wanted to have 'telekenetic lockpicking', or something I could buy a one point power that shifts the lockpicking trapping onto discipline.  And anything I actually need to know about picking locks in included in the point costs.

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I thought it was a way of slightly depowering evocation.

1
It tells new GMs explicitly not to let players get away with using evocation as a skill replacement.  But it still allows it to happen, you just have to pay for it.

2
Since the other evocation related option is refinement, taking a skill trapping shifting power expansion is likely to make you character less over powered, not more.  If you wanted to be OP, you'd just take more refinement.

This also allows non min-maxed wizards and evocators some additional flexibility, since they may actualyl have fate points left over to spend on such things.

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Other commentary:
As 1 point spent on powers, may not actually be good enough; problem is that how much of a potential benefit you get from evocation is variable, depending on your build and refresh.  In the 10-15 refresh range, likely to get between power +0 and power +3, but then, you are also paying points for the refinement and the mental stress.  Maybe should add a minor addition to the power, the fact that you don't need tools is good for some skill shifts, but what about the ones that you didn't need tools to use to begin with?

Implies a third category of evocation foci for 'utility' effects, but who would waste slots on that?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 02:22:17 AM by crusher_bob »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2012, 12:07:29 AM »
You're adding a capability that Evocation didn't have before. I don't see how that can do anything but make the power stronger.

The trapping substitution power will often be weaker than Refinement, but since Evocation often has bigger numbers than any skill it will sometimes make people ridiculously good at whatever trapping they select.

Also, Evocation is balanced against the assumption that you are in a conflict. If you're not, there's not much reason to care about mental stress. Which means that you can push the power of your spells up without worrying about the cost.

It's worrying. It might not actually be broken, but it makes me nervous.

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2012, 04:06:32 AM »
Part of the reason I wanted to make that explicit was to start explicitly separating things 'any wizard can do' from hings that 'only some wizards can do'.

For example, the folding sunlight trick that harry does in Grave Peril.  Is this something (sorta) exceptional that Harry does, or is it something every wizard can do?  Is just saying "my character is happy" enough justification to let my PC this?  What about some other catch bypassing trick?  If sunlight is (relatively) easy to store?

As the books and samples of play expand, 'stuff wizards can do' will get more and more stuff added to it. 

As a sample, we have Harry's belt buckle in, erm, Fool Moon?, LTWs shapechanging, and )forget his name) super speed in Ghost Story.  Even Harry moving himself around with force magic is not something really covered by the rules.

Another example is the knowledge of the Ways that Harry gets in Changes.  Is this pretty much something that every wizard can do?  Hop around the world, more or less safely, and pretty much at will?  Or does this require, say, the world walker power?  And if it does, what portion of it do wizards get 'for free'?

When I first read the rules, my impression was this:
Harry can move himself around with evocation, thus, evocation can replace (some) skill uses, this is reenforced with the rules about veils, which replace stealth.  As I didn't really want spirit to be the best element, I thought that the other elements should probably have similar skill replacement trappings too.  And since force jumping and veils appear to be 'free' extras of spirit magic, the skill replacement trappings of other elements should be free too.

Wizards and flight:
Harry mentions some attempts to fly on a broomstick (or something like that), indicating that he didn't really have any trouble getting himself into the air, but it was the control and attention required not to drop himself back onto the ground that was the problem.  Of course, Harry was a teenager at the time, and even in his adulthood, his control (when compared to other wizards, at least) is nothing special.

So, being able to fly around is something that other wizards are perfectly 'capable' of doing, but just like, say, tightrope walking, is something 'everyone' can do, most people don't.  If you want your wizard to be able to fly around, you should probably take the wings power, to represent your time spent actually practicing/learning how to do it well.

Now, no one ever seems to have objected to the second interpretation, but look how bad an idea the first one is.  So, while I want to 'allow' the first interpretation, I wanted to explicitly make it be something that not every wizard can do.  How? by making ti cost extra refresh, to represent the practice/concentration/aptitude, etc.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2012, 04:31:41 AM »
Another example is the knowledge of the Ways that Harry gets in Changes.  Is this pretty much something that every wizard can do?  Hop around the world, more or less safely, and pretty much at will?  Or does this require, say, the world walker power?  And if it does, what portion of it do wizards get 'for free'?

Any Wizard can open a portal to the Nevernever (as can most other supernatural types).  Not all Wizards know the Ways well enough to achieve the safety and efficiency of travel that Harry achieves in Changes.  Given that that capability comes to Harry by way of an item that he inherits, I'd call that Worldwalker attached to an IoP.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2012, 06:31:28 AM »
That's all very sensible. But I still can't shake my doubts about the balance of this proposal.

Really, I think this deserves/needs to be tested in play.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2012, 06:05:58 PM »
I could see allowing flight as the result of a potion, or a thaumaturgic ritual to give yourself a temporary power, or something like that. But evocation would be right out--if anything, an evocation 'flight' spell would be along the lines of 'shove myself that way really really fast.'

As for things like knowledge of the Ways, Lore declarations make the most sense to me. As pointed out, any wizard can open up a door to the Nevernever anywhere, but knowledge of the Ways is a different story. So something like Harry's mother's notebook thing wouldn't be another power, but maybe an aspect like "ALL THE KNOWLEDGE" or a stunt offering a bonus to Lore rolls to find a Way.

Or just a plot device.
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Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2012, 02:45:53 AM »
How's this sound:

Basic evocation includes one skill trapping replacement for 'free', Harry's is movement, Molly's is veils, other wizards might have other basic abilities.  For example, if you want to have (some) knowledge of the ways, then maybe you'll take the navigation trapping of driving.

This means that the RAW can stand almost exactly as written, with most wizards being assumed to take veils as their default.

This removes spirit as the most equal element, puts slight hedge on free veils, explains why Harry doesn't do them until several books in, and hedges in other skill trapping replacements of evocation.

It's not really perfect, but does seem to solve some slightly irritating issues, (somewhat) hedge in free expansion of wizard power, and is easy.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2012, 04:12:37 AM »
Eh. I like your other suggestion better.

It's more flexible and increases Evocation power less clearly.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Template Balance
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2012, 04:30:00 AM »
Knowledge of the Ways is no more inherent to spellcasting than literacy is inherent to possessing a library card.
Access to the Nevernever is available to almost every type of supernatural entity in the canon, but once they're there, they find their way around pretty much the same way a vanilla mook does on the downtown streets.  With skill rolls.

And Harry moves himself around with magic even less often through the series than he attempts a veil.
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