The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
knnn:
--- Quote from: King Ash on May 02, 2012, 01:32:38 AM ---I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.
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Wouldn't he still be older than Galadriel though? She is something like third or fourth generation Noldor (daughter of Finarfin?) IRC.
King Ash:
Yep, he is still older than Galadriel. Cirdan was clearly born before the elves get to Valinar, where as Galadriel was born in Valinar. Cirdan's age is noted in that he has a beard which means that he is in his third cycle of life.
Shamshiel:
--- Quote from: King Ash on May 02, 2012, 01:32:38 AM ---I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.
--- End quote ---
Ah, I don't get around forums much, so I am unfamiliar with the reference. I was aware he was referred to as kin of Olwe and Elwe, but as far as I was aware, the elves who had first awakened considered themselves related to each other (Elwe and Olwe are brothers, for example, but as far as we know had no parents) even in the absence of parents. There's likely some drafts or other sources that I am unfamiliar with, though.
Either way, as you say, he was really, really damn old, and probably at least remembered Cuivienen, which is kind of like being Cain or Abel if not Adam or Eve.
And yeah, that makes him much older than Galadriel, but I believe we don't know by how much, since I don't believe there is an accurate estimation of the golden age of Valinor or when Galadriel was born in it.
King Ash:
--- Quote from: Shamshiel on May 02, 2012, 01:54:37 AM ---Ah, I don't get around forums much, so I am unfamiliar with the reference. I was aware he was referred to as kin of Olwe and Elwe, but as far as I was aware, the elves who had first awakened considered themselves related to each other (Elwe and Olwe are brothers, for example, but as far as we know had no parents) even in the absence of parents. There's likely some drafts or other sources that I am unfamiliar with, though.
Either way, as you say, he was really, really damn old, and probably at least remembered Cuivienen, which is kind of like being Cain or Abel if not Adam or Eve.
And yeah, that makes him much older than Galadriel, but I believe we don't know by how much, since I don't believe there is an accurate estimation of the golden age of Valinor or when Galadriel was born in it.
--- End quote ---
As you say Elwe (Thingol) and Olwe were brothers but Cirdan (Nowe) is only accounted as kin. If they all Awoke at the same time then they would all be brothers. Anyway it is fairly certain that Elwe is not one of the first Elves either.
This reply says it better than I could so
--- Quote ---Reposted from http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=54569 is my paraphrase of Tar-Elenion's reasoning concerning why Ingwë, Elwë, Olwë and Finwë are not of 'The Unbegotten', amended to show why Nowë (Círdan) is unlikely to be 'Unbegotten' either.
Although there is no doubt that Círdan is the oldest elf we meet in the LotR, the thread I cited previously (Círdan's Beard )shows that while Círdan may have been born at Cuivienen, he was most probably not one of the original Elves who 'awoke' there.
The 'Unbegotten' (Elves who originally awoke) awoke each with their respective spouse (hence 144 Elves in 72 pairs). Elwë had to wife Melian and she did not awaken at Cuivienen. Elwë also had two brothers Olwë and Elmo, hence he had parents. Círdan was 'akin' to Elwë and Olwë but was their junior (else He would be King of the Teleri) so is likely not of the 'Unbegotten'. He also seems not to have had a spouse. For completeness, Finwë had to wife Míriel. Míriel had a mother name (Serindë ), and hence a mother. Thus Míriel was born, hence Finwë did not 'Awaken'. Ingwë had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother) and hence had parents, thus he was born and not Unbegotten.
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http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=57199
mdodd:
Geek note. In my copy of The Silmarilian Cirdan is mainly referred to as "The Shipwright".
He does not appear in the listed family trees. I don't have my copy of LotR to hand but looking at the last few pages of The Silmarillion is was he who built the boat that carried Frodo away (which is logical, I guess).
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